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OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

458 replies

WendyWeber · 26/11/2007 13:21

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

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Blu · 29/11/2007 15:28

update

Kathyis6incheshigh · 29/11/2007 15:30

But then the Liverpudlian and Irish children wouldn't be called Jesus either, would they?
The ok-for-a-child-but-not-a-teddy thing is a bit more subtle.

stleger · 29/11/2007 15:38

Wouls a Spanish teddy be called Jesus though? I feel sorry for her error of judgement, I'm sure she wishes she had gone with Bruno. It is frustrating watching cases like this develop from a western point of view.

needmorecoffee · 29/11/2007 15:40

The clerics are getting a bit hysterical. Maybe they should read the whole sections in the Qu'ran about compassion, forgiveness, tolerance and the bit where non-muslims in muslim states aren't persecuted for mistakes.
They aren't doing Islam any favours

IsawKIMIkissingSantaClaus · 29/11/2007 16:46

You would think that as they are in the middle of a famine and looking to the west for hand outs and help that they would not bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.

I think the poor woman should come home as soon as she is free and forget helping out in the developing world.

It is a name, a word, a name of someone who probably had no more divine power then you or I .

Yes religious nutters are religious what ever god they are kneeling to (or hiding behind) I am not saying only Muslims are mad.

If she was a rapist or a child killer I would be the first in the queue to say lash away, but all she did was give a teddy bear a bloody name.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 29/11/2007 16:47

The clerics themselves are probably well fed

IsawKIMIkissingSantaClaus · 29/11/2007 16:55

Oh I would put money on that kathy.

It has been the subject of discussion in the school playground today, and the Muslin parents are so against her being treated like this, but when did those in power really ever give a toss what joe bloggs thought, they like to tell everyone what to think and fell about things.

I have to say this has made me move a donation to another charity instead of one in Sudan as it is not the zealots that will suffer from it I know, but I am so bloody mad about it that I could not hand over money in good faith now.

WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 18:17

Brilliant opinion column by a Muslim woman (from the Mail but still good )

There have been loads of fantastic sensible comments made by Muslims over this, both in the UK and elsewhere; they can see what damage this is potentially doing, why can't the Sudanese authorities?

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WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 18:23

She's been found guilty of insulting religion - 15 days in jail, then deportation.

I suppose they think that's a compromise

It was a fellow member of staff who reported it, not a parent.

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WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 18:27

BBC

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TheDullWitch · 29/11/2007 18:30

We should cease diplomatic relations with Sudan.

WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 18:33

But what about the Brits living in Sudan if we did? It could get very nasty for them if diplomatic relations blow up.

Difficult.

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Blu · 29/11/2007 19:03

A very depressing verdict.

I bet the Embassy in London are embarrassed.

I hope (at least) they count the days imprisonment since she has been in captivity - last Sunday. And that there will be an appeal. Maybe based on the Q'uaranic evidence that NMC cites.

Where are the BBC readers views that condemn her? I saw one list of feedback comments - many from Khartoum - and the vast majority of Sudanese women are in support of the teacher.

themildmanneredjanitor · 29/11/2007 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 19:07

True, mmj, but not guilty on all 3 counts better still (and correct).

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themildmanneredjanitor · 29/11/2007 19:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bossybritches · 29/11/2007 19:09

Whatever the rights & wrongs (percieved or otherwise ) in this case ...God she's lucky to get away with that!!

At least it's bearable, 15 days. As for the deportation who the hell would want to stay there anyway...but she can't WAIT to get out!

I think it's a good face saver, not satisfactory for some but good enough considering what they were predicting.

Wendy I thought that article brilliant too but knowing the prejudice on here against the DM refrained from posting it!!

oxocube · 29/11/2007 19:58

Have been following this story. As a teacher in a foreign country in an international school, I am very surprised she was so naive (sorry if that offends anyone). I'm very relieved for the teacher that she escaped a much more inhumane punishment, but, surely, working in a country like the Sudan, you would imagine a teacher to be aware of the religious and political regime (I don't want to use the word extremism, even though I personally find some of their beliefs and cultural norms barbaric). I know if I went in to my staff room and said to my colleagues, Hey, I've decided to call the class teddy Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna etc, I would be hauled into my head's office pretty quickly and told in no uncertain terms why I would NOT be allowed to do this.

And if its true that a colleague reported her, rather that speaking to her personally, then this is despicable

SueBaroo · 29/11/2007 20:07

I was just reading a thread about it on a Muslim site where they were quite straight-faced suggestions that she was part of a western conspiracy yada yada yada.

What kind of half-arsed conspiracies do these people think of?

Western conspiracist: "We need to bring down Islam and Sudan Racks brains Got it! We'll get a western woman teacher to be a mole, convince her class to vote for a stuffed toy to be called Muhammed, and watch the fabric of society crumble! Mowahahahaha!

Of course, our plan will be thwarted if they find out, and put her in prison or lash her. They'd have us on the run then..."

WendyWeber · 29/11/2007 20:09

Well yes, it was naive - with hindsight - but OTOH all her colleagues knew about it apparently, and a letter was sent to all the children's parents, so why did none of them stop her doing it?

They are all at least as culpable as she (and I was v dismayed at her head's comment as reported on the BBC website:

"It's a very fair verdict, she could have had six months and lashes and a fine, and she only got 15 days and deportation."

He knew the whole story from the start, didn't he?)

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Ozymandius · 29/11/2007 20:21

Yes, so nice to see the school so supportive of their employee. That head is a cowardly bastard. If it was that bloody obvious that letting the children call the teddy Mohammed was 'stupid' then why didn't the kids say anything? Why didn't the parents? Why didn't her fellow teachers? It obviously never occured to anyone except the witch who reported her, and the bearded loons who couldn't wait to stir up more racist hatred against white people.
As for 'we wouldn't call a teddy Jesus', no we wouldn't, because Jesus isn't a common name here. I bet there have been millions of dolls and teddies called Mary though, without anyone feeling the need to call the police or call for nice, middle-aged schoolteachers to be killed.

pukkapatch · 29/11/2007 20:24

i have tried to stay away from this thread.
as a muslim i find it deplorable that this teacher is being punished for this.
as a muslim i find it deplorable that idiots are allwoing islam to be portrayed in such an idiotic way.
i admire her very obvious classroom management skills, but deplore her naivete about her host country.
however is it naivete, or is it something more malicious. there are very strange people in this world. i have come accross women in saudi arabia who would happily go about wearing their abaya's and head scarves when they wanted to get their shopping done,{when in rome do as the romands do sort of thing} but when they wanted a bit of fun, would go around without them, so that the mutawa's would get on their cases, and then these women could complain about their mistreatment. it was all malicous fun for them.
i deplore the heads cowardice for not standing up for his staff.
i just really really dislike this entire situation.

pukkapatch · 29/11/2007 20:29

in india pakistan etc, although many men and boys have the name muhammed as their first name, they are never ever actually called that. it is their middle name that is actually their given name. it is considered rude by some, blasphemous by others to call a child muhammed.
so for example, if somone said, 'muhammed go sit on the potty, or muhammed time for wee wee' some nutters would consider excommunication.
i think that as an expatriate teacher, it should be polite to find out these mores of a society. but as an employer of expatriates, the head should enlighten them, and then stand up for them.

but this is just a political football now. the facts no longer have any relevance

Monkeytrousers · 29/11/2007 20:33

This was in the Independent i think yesterday. This chapter stood out, "Yesterday Inayat Bunglawala, assistant general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, criticised the arrest of Ms Gibbons in Sudan and described it as a "quite horrible misunderstanding". But during a public debate in London two weeks ago, he refused my invitation to condemn unequivocally the practice of stoning women to death for adultery. It had happened during the lifetime of the Prophet, he said, "so you are asking me to condemn my Prophet"."

The whol epiece is here. Can't remember who wrote it.

"Gillian Gibbons sounds like a nice woman. She is in her 50s, a teacher from Liverpool with grown-up children, and earlier this year she decided to put her experience to use in one of the most troubled parts of Africa. In August, she started teaching at an independent primary school in Sudan, where she seems to have been popular with her young pupils; she followed a national curriculum course designed to teach them about animals and asked a seven-year-old girl to bring her teddy bear into class.

Everything seemed to be going well until last weekend, when Ms Gibbons was arrested and found herself in prison in Khartoum, accused of a crime so horrendous that it carries a penalty of up to six months in jail or 40 lashes. Her "offence" was to name the teddy bear after the Prophet, even though the name was chosen by her young charges themselves. According to the school's director, Robert Boulos, the children came up with eight names and voted overwhelmingly for Mohamed.

Several parents promptly complained to the authorities, leading to Ms Gibbons' arrest on Sunday. The state-controlled media centre in Sudan reported that charges were being prepared under article 125 of the criminal code, which covers insults against faith and religion.

Once again, secular people around the world are left reeling at the capacity of Islam to discern "insult" in the most innocuous behaviour. At one level, this sequence of events is preposterous; I'm sure there are plenty of genuine crimes to worry about in Sudan without wasting time pursuing a woman whose good intentions are manifest.

But the significance of the case goes beyond the individuals concerned, highlighting aspects of Islam as it is currently practised in countries such as Sudan and Saudi Arabia ? and promoted in some European mosques ? which are incompatible with the modern world. One is the role of honour, which has repeatedly been used to legitimise furious over-reactions to everything from the naming of a toy to instances of women and gay people demanding autonomy over their bodies.

Ever since the outcry over The Satanic Verses nearly two decades ago, I have watched Muslim men (they almost always are men) use the claim that their honour has been insulted as an excuse for disgraceful and frequently criminal behaviour. Salman Rushdie "insults" the Prophet: burn his books. Danish cartoonists display a lack of respect for Islam: attack Danish embassies. A British Muslim girl wants to marry the "wrong" man: kill her for shaming the family. A Saudi rape victim complains that her attackers got off too lightly: increase her sentence (for being in a car with a man who wasn't her husband) to 200 lashes.

In the latter instance, Saudi officials have responded to an international outcry by claiming that the woman has admitted an extra-marital affair and therefore the sentence is fully justified. She has "confessed to doing what God has forbidden", according to a statement on Monday from the Saudi justice ministry, which also attacked "foreign interference" in the case. The Saudis have not been driven to use such punishments by the Iraq war, and they are not untypical of sentences passed in other countries under Islamic law.

The stark fact is that the notion of "honour" and the violence linked to it cannot co-exist with the modern idea of universal human rights. It encourages men to create oppressive laws which do not recognise individual liberties, and to break the law in states where those liberties have been acknowledged.

I have never claimed that Islam is the only religion that does this, and there are anomalies in British law ? the archaic offence of blasphemy is an example ? which reminds us of a time when Christians reacted just as violently to what they perceived as "insults". In the past, Catholics and Protestants took turns to slaughter each other as Sunni and Shia are doing now, but Christianity has to a large extent been secularised. Not as much as I'd like ? there's still a way to go on homosexuality and abortion ? but there is no doubt that the influence of Christian churches has dramatically declined.

At the heart of this process is an alteration in the status of religious texts. The Old Testament is full of hair-raising injunctions and barbaric punishments but I don't know anyone, apart from a few extremists on the Christian right, who takes it seriously. The idea that a single book written centuries ago has unique authority ? in effect, a veto over all other ideas ? makes no sense in societies where intellectual curiosity is valued and encouraged.

Yesterday Inayat Bunglawala, assistant general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, criticised the arrest of Ms Gibbons in Sudan and described it as a "quite horrible misunderstanding". But during a public debate in London two weeks ago, he refused my invitation to condemn unequivocally the practice of stoning women to death for adultery. It had happened during the lifetime of the Prophet, he said, "so you are asking me to condemn my Prophet".

This is a very clear example of the pre-modern and modern sensibilities clashing head-on. No book or person has a monopoly on truth, and I certainly don't regard Muhammad, Jesus or Marx as beyond criticism. But while Muslim scholars are prepared to argue about interpretation, they have this in common: they all agree on the primacy of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

Even the suggestion that the text needs to be reformed, which she has denied making, was sufficient to force Taslima Nasreen to flee her home country, Bangladesh, and seek refuge in Sweden. She recently moved to India, hoping to find more tolerant attitudes among Indian Muslims, and is now being hounded from one city to another by angry mobs.

It is not enough in these circumstances to claim that Islam is a religion of peace, and dismiss all the things non-Muslims don't like ? honour killings, relentless assaults on free speech, and now an accusation of blasphemy related to a teddy bear ? as aberrations. The mores of the seventh century have no relevance in modern life, especially in the arena of sex where decisions about who to sleep with are widely regarded as a personal matter.

The damage that is being inflicted daily on the image of Islam doesn't come from people like me, who are constantly accused of Islamophobia, but practices such as forced marriage, honour killings and heated denunciations of "Western" values. I can't think of any secular country where a rape victim or a well-meaning British teacher would find themselves threatened with flogging."

LittleBella · 29/11/2007 20:33

"do you think insulting other cultures helps at all?"

It neither helps nor hinders. I think it's perfectly acceptable to be insulting about the idiotic bits of people's cultures, actually, whether that's being hysterical about the name of a teddy bear or vomiting in the street because you've drunk 15 WKD's.

If someone was insulting about the latter and then someone else came on and demanded that English culture should not be insulted in this way, I'd be a bit startled that English culture was being defined by the most idiotic cultureless bit of it.