OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

oh yes I'm sure the Blacks in Zimbabwe absolutely loved Western Morals when Ian Smith "illegally" declared independence from the UK and the UK declared it illegal for them to be independent (obviously the way he ran the country with his "independence" is highly questionable) but seen as though several other African countries had already gained proper independence from their former colonisers would hardly have made the Zimbabweans think "wow aren't the West's morals wonderful, they don't want us to be an independent nation......"

(ooops sorry, QoQ - I see now that you are having this discussion on a coule of threads...)

I am??? ooooo - please tell me where else I'm discussing it

slim - Would you care to provide a Sura or Hadith where it is forbidden for Muslims to depict ANY person? I would be interested to learn, if there is such a thing.

By the way, it is not "God" whose depiction is forbidden but Prophet Mohammad. Everyone else can be pictured, and they are. Check out the portraits of Ali with the double-edged sword.

spokette - re your "doubt that Islam will ever see another renaissance because its lead proponets are not mature enough or strong enough in their faith to wither any form of criticism.":

The extremists are a minority, albeit in power in some Muslim countries. You would be amazed at the decency, strength, and maturity of the vast majority of people even in such places. And I doubt that the Inquisition and the Church at the time were overjoyed at criticism, either, yet the Renaissance happened when people have had enough.

There will come a time when this majority will revolt and shape the Renaissance of Islam. Until then, stay out of places where they cut hands for a stolen loaf of bread or stone a raped woman to death.

It's reassuring to hear from moderate mulsims on this thread. What i'd like to know is what authority there is in the Koran for the dress code forced on women. It seems to vary from one place to another, but the most extreme form is surely the "burkha". With that tiny grille at eye-level it actually looks like someone peeping out of a prison cell. It seems to be the perfect symbol of oppression. What does the Koran actually say about what women should wear?

The Qu'ran says that women (and men) should dress modestly and cover 'that what is apparent'

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and that they

should not display of their adornment except what may (ordinarily) appear, and

they they draw their veils over their bosoms, and do not display their beauty

except to their own husbands (iit goes on too discuss what men like uncles/brothers etc " [Quran : 24.31]

There is endless debate as to what this means and endless debate as to what the Arabic word 'hijab' means. Some say it means total covering, others just modest dress with the head uncovered. But this debate has been going on for hundreds of years. What happens is that sisters dress culturally and it is called Isalmic. So each country has different traditions from Saudi total covering to Pakistan where many sisters do not wear headscarves.

Most muslim women don't feel oppressed but feel freer. Being covered means a man isn't talking to your boobs and what you look like isn't an issue (or shouldn't be) but what you have to say.
I like wearing a headscarf and loose clothing. My body is my own and not for blokes to judge me on or gawp at. I see women and young girls thinking that what they look like is all important and that if a man isn't looking at your boobs then you are worthless.
But thats my opinion.
And there are some days I wouldn't mind wearing a face veil even though it isn't required by the Qu'ran. Like when I haven't had enough sleep or have a big spot. But thats my vanity talking!

And its not 'forecd' in the Qu'ran. You do it because God commanded but there is no punishment set out for not doing it. It really is a minor thing which gets way too much air time when Islam is more than what women wear!

well to be fair the reason so much focus is given to the clothes, is because the nutters focus so much on it.

As when men run around beating women with sticks when they don't like waht they're wearing, or as in that horrifying case in Saudi where the religious police insisted a group of girls burnt to death rather than come out in their oh so unislamic nightclothes.

The media obsession with islamic dress, merely reflects the nutter's obsession with islamic dress.

Coffee, I heard a wonderful Islamic (Oxford University) academic talk about this issue on radio 4. He seemed to say that the covering of the head was required, but full veiling had only been required of the wives of the Prophet.

What I thoroughly enjoyed was listening to his ultra calm, non inflammatory, rigorous argument, which so reminded me of my old tutor discussing issues in biochemistry. I felt that this was a man who was truly in love with his subjects.

And being confident, he didn't feel the need to hector or bully, or threaten.

It was quite wonderful

Can you imagine if in the UK we would do the same that would critisize our freedom of speech, our morals, womens' rights, ...it makes my skin boil!!!

I'd agree with you there Littlebella. There are brothers who spend more time fretting about women and women's clothing that thinking about their own souls or own duties (be kind, generous, compassionate etc etc)
But its the same in non-islamic countries. A woman who sleep around is a slut, a man who does the same is a stud. Women who are raped probably deserved it etc etc
I've been a feminist for 20 years and still fed up with how females are treated all across the world. There isn't any country where they are truly equal and considered so by men.

agree 100%.

Far too many many see 'honour' as tied up in a woman's vagina rather than in their own dicks.

BBC news update. David Milliband involved...clerics citing a Western plot...

Mrs Flora, what women wear and look like is in every flipping magazine and judgments made about them all the time. It never stops. Posh is critised for being too thin, Charlotte Chucrh too fat. Female newsreaders are exed when they are no longer young. Constant judgement about women. Women MP's have their looks discussed.
There is no true freedom for women.

Paranoia strikes.

relatively moderate???

'But Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.

"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said a statement.

The semi-official clerics body is considered relatively moderate and is believed to have the ear of the Sudanese government. '

Curses! Foiled again. The western plot to destabilise Sudan (which is so solid otherwise) was to parachute thousands of teddybears into the country all called Muhammed has been cunningly rooted out by these 'moderates'

Shhesh! If these are moderates what are the hardliners like?

I wasn't really thinking about countries where women choose traditional dress. For you it can have any meaning you like. It's up to you.

I was thinking of Islamic states where they have to dress that way whether they want to or not. Women in those countries might see it a different way. Those who want to rebel against the inferior status of women (and not all do) would feel the strict dress codes to be a symbol of oppression. It would feel to them like being in prison.

But what you quoted from the Koran sounds vague enough that it allows the mullahs to make any interpretation they like, however oppressive.

LOL it would be pythonesque if it weren't real

Yup, and thats the problem with religious Govt's. Its happenend under Christianity too. I have no idea why people feel the need to force their views on other people. Its never done out of compassion though.

hopefully this is an allegation that the poor woman's lawyers will not find hard to disprove.....

TBH coffee, it isn't even just religious governments that can go utterly insane.

I remember when the rouble was floated on the currency markets (at the start of Glasnost). Not surprisingly it dropped like a rock, from its previously pegged 1 rouble 1 dollar level that the government had enforced,

I heard a Communist government official explain that this had only happened because of the forces of international Zionism playing the markets to wreck the Soviet economy. Like they needed help.......

This thread (come to late my me) is why I love MN.

Huzzah.

Bonaventura - as needmorecoffee explained, Quran quite clearly says that women should not show their beauty & adornment to men other than husband & close relatives. Adornment (jewels' in some translations) & beauty is interpreted as anything from naked body parts to eyes, lips, etc, but the basic message is clearly that Muslim women should not be dressing up to look attractive, or even pretty.

If I believed in a God and thought Quran was his word, then yes, I would be wearing a scarf and throwing away the bikinis. I understand why Muslim women would want to dress conservatively & cover their heads.

From what I hear on the news tonight it looks like this woman is being turned into a political football. She seems to be at the centre of a power-struggle between the moderates and the extremists, so it probably doesn't matter now what her "crime" was, or who speaks up for her. The outcome will probably depend on which faction prevails.