Shamima begum allowed to return to UK

[mummabear1967]

Surely I’ve got this wrong? She’s actually allowed back to the UK after joining a terrorist group abroad?

Anyone just a tiny bit worried about what might happen if she does return?

I’m baffled as to how some people can defend her

No one is defending her.
They are defending the rule of law in the UK.
They are defending the idea that the UK should clear up its own mess.
They are defending the idea that it isn't just to remove citizenship because the citizen had a parent with another citizenship.
Some people are pointing out that she was a groomed child when she left.
No one is suggesting the cause is just, that she behaved well or that she shouldn't be subject to the same UK law as every other British citizen who left for Syria.

@CherryPavlova

Interestingly, the Independent reported that the number of white terror suspects being arrested outstripped those of Asian appearance for the second year in a row in 2019. Should all those aligning with far right views be imprisoned without a release date?

If they did that certain sections of MN (as evidenced in this thread) would be devoid of posters, the dog whistling in this thread is disgusting

I’m baffled as to how some people can defend her
Nobody is defending her.
Many of us just don't think the UK can go around the world dumping our citizens because we'd rather abandon the rule of law and it's easier to run along with the far right cries than to deal with a situation that halpion our doorstep. She was a child of our country, she was radicalised in our country. Why should a country of far fewer resources take her?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a 15 year old child can't be groomed though. It's starting to seem like some here would argue white teenage girls can be groomed for CSE by Asian men, but a teen of Asian heritage couldn't possibly be groomed by a terrorist organisation.

Well if 'they' are going to deport Begum maybe 'they' should look at the EU scum clogging our jails. Just saying.

@safariboot

They are not sure they can charge her with anything.

I'm confident there is strong evidence. If Shamima Begum's citizenship is reinstated then she can be tried for any murders she committed in Syria, as well as whatever other offences she's committed. And if SB is convicted of murder I would absolutely support a whole life sentence.

Where do you get any evidence at all that she murdered anyone? Nobody has suggested this is the case at all. It’s wild extrapolation of unwise, unpalatable views into killing.

They are quite far apart but spreading rumours that she’s a mass murderer makes it easier to say ‘throw the key away’ without trial. Lots of people hold unpalatable and unlawful views but that alone doesn’t make them killers. Is it because she’s Muslim?

*2020wasShocking
*

*For those that talk about living in a society that follows human rights laws and ‘everyone’ is entitled to a ‘fair trial yada yada’
*
Without doubt one of the stupidest comments I have read on MN for a long time. Please read what you have written and follow that to its logical conclusion.

Are you genuinely saying that the right to a fair trial is 'yada yada' ? You would be happy to be arrested, imprisoned and sentenced without a trial would you ? Or does your comment only apply to brown people . ???

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a 15 year old child can't be groomed though. It's starting to seem like some here would argue white teenage girls can be groomed for CSE by Asian men, but a teen of Asian heritage couldn't possibly be groomed by a terrorist organisation

There is actually a big difference and it’s disingenuous for posters to say it’s the same.

The child sex groomers targeted already very vulnerable young girls. They made contact by making the child believe they loved them and would look after them. The girls fell in love with an individual. They got them hooked on drugs then forced them to have sex with multiple men and were forced to drive around the country to meet these perverts. These men were picking the girls up from outside school. The girls tried to speak to the police but we’re ignored. The tried to speak to social workers but were ignored.

SB was groomed obviously but it’s entirely different. The other girls did not have a choice. She did. No harm was inflicted on her, she wasn’t being kidnapped, she was fully aware and happy to go to Syria to marry a man she had never met. She had seen the grotesque videos and they didn’t turn her stomach.

SB was excited about her new life.

I wish people would stop saying it’s the same because it’s minimising the sexual violence that has happened to the young girls who were sex trafficked. They did not have a choice. SB did.

There is a young lady in prison now called Ellie Williams. She was targeted by a grooming gang and was systematically raped and brutalised. She’d reported it to the police numerous time’s and she was placed in a safe house with a tag on ‘for her own safety’ as she was being taken from her home area. The groomers kidnapped her from the safe house raped and battered her and left her naked an unconscious in the middle of no where. She was found and taken to hospital where a police officer sat with her during the night and took her statement. The next day she was arrested for breaking her curfew. Doesn’t matter that she was dragged in to a car apparently and her face was still blooded and purple, one eye swollen shut..

She is is still in there now. Been in since May. Maggie Oliver is helping with her case. There was even a white women reporter defending her attacker in the local paper. ( she’s gone on sick leave now as messages from Ellie’s attacker surfaced saying he ‘had the press in his pocket)

So where is the long running thread about Ellie? Why are posters not fighting for her? Is it because she has the wrong colour skin? Is it because she serves no political gain? You can’t really virtual signal with a white working class girl ? No?

There is a world of difference between SB and girls like Ellie Williams.

My understanding is that we’ve allowed repatriation of other British citizens in this situation. They have to go through careful depoliticisation processes.

She was 15. I suspect she’d no idea what it would really be like and she’s seen her own horrors - watching all her children die.

When the Times reporter first spoke to her she came across as traumatised, confused and still very young.

Some information here, 900 British citizens fought (actually fought) as jihadis and 40% have returned. I’m assuming just re-entered the country as opposed to supported to come home.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/11fd7c00-0790-11ea-a984-fbbacad9e7dd

So where is the long running thread about Ellie? Why are posters not fighting for her? Is it because she has the wrong colour skin? Is it because she serves no political gain? You can’t really virtual signal with a white working class girl ? No?

There is a man who came in the country at 14 as a refugee. Lived here for 20 years. All he had was a British passport which was cancelled without his knowledge , he was unable to come back home ,was homeless in Brussels for weeks and the British Embassy washed their hands off him as he wasn't a citizen anymore.

I doubt anyone knows about him either.

The failings of the law,justice and the Government are many and in various areas. For every high media profile case you can find many more that go under the radar.It doesn't mean people don't care.

@Evelefteden if no teens can be groomed and radicalised then what is the point of Prevent?

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

*2020wasShocking *

*For those that talk about living in a society that follows human rights laws and ‘everyone’ is entitled to a ‘fair trial yada yada’
*
Without doubt one of the stupidest comments I have read on MN for a long time. Please read what you have written and follow that to its logical conclusion.

Are you genuinely saying that the right to a fair trial is 'yada yada' ? You would be happy to be arrested, imprisoned and sentenced without a trial would you ? Or does your comment only apply to brown people . ???

Try making it about colour all you want, if you think it helps your argument (it doesn’t btw) but the fact still stands - she joined a terrorist organisation!

she joined a terrorist organisation!

And she should be put on trial for that, evidence given and sentenced accordingly.

What we can't do is wash our hands off her and make it someone else's problem because it suits public opinion.

@Evelefteden

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a 15 year old child can't be groomed though. It's starting to seem like some here would argue white teenage girls can be groomed for CSE by Asian men, but a teen of Asian heritage couldn't possibly be groomed by a terrorist organisation

There is actually a big difference and it’s disingenuous for posters to say it’s the same.

The child sex groomers targeted already very vulnerable young girls. They made contact by making the child believe they loved them and would look after them. The girls fell in love with an individual. They got them hooked on drugs then forced them to have sex with multiple men and were forced to drive around the country to meet these perverts. These men were picking the girls up from outside school. The girls tried to speak to the police but we’re ignored. The tried to speak to social workers but were ignored.

SB was groomed obviously but it’s entirely different. The other girls did not have a choice. She did. No harm was inflicted on her, she wasn’t being kidnapped, she was fully aware and happy to go to Syria to marry a man she had never met. She had seen the grotesque videos and they didn’t turn her stomach.

SB was excited about her new life.

I wish people would stop saying it’s the same because it’s minimising the sexual violence that has happened to the young girls who were sex trafficked. They did not have a choice. SB did.

There is a young lady in prison now called Ellie Williams. She was targeted by a grooming gang and was systematically raped and brutalised. She’d reported it to the police numerous time’s and she was placed in a safe house with a tag on ‘for her own safety’ as she was being taken from her home area. The groomers kidnapped her from the safe house raped and battered her and left her naked an unconscious in the middle of no where. She was found and taken to hospital where a police officer sat with her during the night and took her statement. The next day she was arrested for breaking her curfew. Doesn’t matter that she was dragged in to a car apparently and her face was still blooded and purple, one eye swollen shut..

She is is still in there now. Been in since May. Maggie Oliver is helping with her case. There was even a white women reporter defending her attacker in the local paper. ( she’s gone on sick leave now as messages from Ellie’s attacker surfaced saying he ‘had the press in his pocket)

So where is the long running thread about Ellie? Why are posters not fighting for her? Is it because she has the wrong colour skin? Is it because she serves no political gain? You can’t really virtual signal with a white working class girl ? No?

There is a world of difference between SB and girls like Ellie Williams.

This this and this.

Evelefteden
Grooming is grooming. Acknowledging that grooming is grooming doesn't mean to say the outcomes are the same.

We had training at work about grooming for county lines gangs. Of course the teenagers in the case studies chose to get on the trains to travel to cities to get drugs to deal on the streets, but the point is that they wouldn't be doing that unless they'd been groomed. Teenagers don't wake up one morning and decide to deal drugs.

Situations of CSE have happened when the teen genuinely believes their boyfriend loves them, that the relationship is special. There is a point in the initial grooming relationship where the victim won't have a clue they are a victim and one of the challenges is working through that situation because the grooming is so powerful that often the victims thinks it's their choice.

The point of grooming is that it is manipulative. A 15 year old is a child who can be groomed by adults with their own agendas. It would be a worrying day for safeguarding if we start saying otherwise.

I'd question the 'no harm came to her' argument. Having lived in a terrorist organisation and experienced several children dying as a teenager sounds like harm to me. She was radicalised on our country and she is our responsibility to deal with according to the rule of law.

I'd question the 'no harm came to her' argument. Having lived in a terrorist organisation and experienced several children dying as a teenager sounds like harm to me

There is no proof she even had children. She got on that plane willingly. The child sex abuse victims had no such choice. A car full of men sitting out side your house threatening to burn your mother and your little siblings alive in your house if you don’t come out is completely different.

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

she joined a terrorist organisation!

And she should be put on trial for that, evidence given and sentenced accordingly.

What we can't do is wash our hands off her and make it someone else's problem because it suits public opinion.

Yes indeed she should be put on trial here, I’ve always said that.

No harm was inflicted on her

Apart from being married at 15 and having three babies die? That wouldn’t be traumatic at all, would it? Seeing beheadings as a child, that would be OK? Living in an oppressive regime would be character building, yes?

Why the fuck she,wants to come back is beyond me. She'll face hate and probable death. She's pissed off too many to live here peacefully I suspect.

If allowed to stay and regaon her citizenship she will cost the tax payer shit loads as they give her somewhere to live and a new identity when she has contributed fuck all to our society, in fact she's done worst than having contributed fuck all.

@CherryPavlova

No harm was inflicted on her

Apart from being married at 15 and having three babies die? That wouldn’t be traumatic at all, would it? Seeing beheadings as a child, that would be OK? Living in an oppressive regime would be character building, yes?

She knew all that was going to happen! She went there to marry some one! She had seen the videos of the barbaric murders.

She was armed wit the knowledge of exactly what was going to happen.

The sex abuse victims didnt

2020wasShocking

Try making it about colour all you want, if you think it helps your argument (it doesn’t btw) but the fact still stands - she joined a terrorist organisation!

And your answer to that is to dispense with fair trials because they are 'yada yada'
Why don't you believe in the right to a fair trial ? Or do you only believe that SOME people are allowed a free trial.

How about answering a question, in reply to a pretty shocking post , instead of deflecting .

If I'm honest I don't think you've really thought about any of this at all beyond a knee jerk 'daily mail' reaction.

You don't want her back because you believe she has committed a crime . So do I as it happens . However I want her back to face trial and you want her to rot in a refugee camp. However you can't pick and choose the bits of law we like, and apply them to the people we like. Do that and YOU could find yourself imprisoned without a fair trial.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for belonging to a terrorist organisation. where he was also accused of treason and sedition against his own country. ?

Would you have been equally happy that he was denied a fair trial ?

2020wasShocking

Try making it about colour all you want, if you think it helps your argument (it doesn’t btw) but the fact still stands - she joined a terrorist organisation!

And your answer to that is to dispense with fair trials because they are 'yada yada'
Why don't you believe in the right to a fair trial ? Or do you only believe that SOME people are allowed a free trial.

How about answering a question, in reply to a pretty shocking post , instead of deflecting .

If I'm honest I don't think you've really thought about any of this at all beyond a knee jerk 'daily mail' reaction.

You don't want her back because you believe she has committed a crime . So do I as it happens . However I want her back to face trial and you want her to rot in a refugee camp. However you can't pick and choose the bits of law we like, and apply them to the people we like. Do that and YOU could find yourself imprisoned without a fair trial.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for belonging to a terrorist organisation. where he was also accused of treason and sedition against his own country. ?

Would you have been equally happy that he was denied a fair trial ?

Yes the deflection of accusing people of their stance on this because of colour is piss poor and lazy.

Tbf she was a child...

@CorianderLord

Tbf she was a child...

She was an adolescent and a few months away of being able legally marry in this country.