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Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?

215 replies

MysticMeghan · 05/02/2020 10:27

The news is full of stories about electric cars, how marvellous they are for the environment and how wonderful it's going to be when we all have them. But as someone of modest means, I can't help wondering if this is going to be something that is embraced by the wealthy and those of us who can't afford to shell out £30,000 for a new car are going to be left behind.

I know there is car leasing, but you have to be able to be loan worthy to qualify for that. If you are on UC or working a part time minimum wage and you NEED a car to get to work because you live in a rural area or work unsocial hours, what are you going to do? There's not going to be much of a market in 2nd hand electric vehicles, so buying an old banger for £500 (or cheaper) to get around isn't going to be an option anymore.

The other thing that occurred to me was charging. I live in a street of terraced houses where we fight to park outside our own house because there are no driveways. We all park on the same side of the street to let fire engines and buses get by. Even with occasional charging, there are still going to be electric cables trailing across pavements. What about people across the road? How do they charge from home? Trail their cable across the road? What about blind people or wheelchair users trying to get along pavements? The estate is just streets and streets of tightly packed houses built in the 1950s. There is simply nowhere to install public charging points even if we wanted to.

At my work, we have 250 spaces for about 500 staff. People who arrive late have to park on the street. We currently have about 8 electric charging points for which there is fierce competition and already loads of problems getting people to move mid morning so that others can get in and charge because there is simply nowhere for people who move their vehicles to actually go. I have no doubt our employer would pay to convert the entire car park, but it needs to be at least double to size to allow everyone to charge. We are on an industrial estate with lots of parking restrictions. I realise that the simple answer to this is public transport, but for me to get to work by public transport in time for a 6am start simply isn't going to happen because the buses and trains for those distances don't exist at that hour of the morning. I work in Edinburgh but live in a different region (county) because I just can't afford Edinburgh house prices.

DH works in a rural area where there is ONE public charging point shared between about 17 villages. He has to commute further than the the range of a current electric vehicle and he uses tools and is an only able to work during daylight hours, so parking miles away and walking a cement mixer up the street just isn't practical. Assuming technology could improve to the extent that the range of vehicles could be increased and he could find on street charging near to where he is working, there's still going to be large sections of the day when he is likely to be hanging around waiting to charge a vehicle where he isn't actually earning.

The government are actually REMOVING the subsidy for purchasing electric vehicles in March so there doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on. And whilst I'm sure that electric vehicles are going to be a real boon in cities, I can't help thinking that in rural areas, where people NEED cars and there isn't even a proper mobile phone network or even mains gas in some places, people are really going to struggle. Where DH works the area earns most of its revenue from tourism, with people driving considerable distances but then just mainly staying for the day. Are they REALLY going to put in 40/50 charging points in a remote fishing village? Or will people have to beg the use of someone's private supply so they can drive home?

I recently read an article where an electric car user admitted that driving to visit his in-laws in Norfolk was quite inconvenient because he had to stop and charge about 5 times (and no doubt stay overnight somewhere as well). But he said as he only does that once a year he can live with it. What if you have to drive considerable distances every day or every week to look after sick relatives? There is this assumption that everyone lives identical lives with at most a 15 mile commute. That nobody really drives long distances very often. That's not my reality at all.

I know by the time all this happens, cars will have a better range and need less charging, but whereas you can easily integrate electric cars into a fairly modern country like Norway, this is Britain with our creaking Victorian and post war infrastructure and short of turning the country into one huge car park how is this going to work? Even in Norway they had problems. Affluent city dwellers with great public transport links embraced the changes. The rural poor have had to radically re-think their lifestyles, with less opportunity to travel, work and socialise they are more or less stuck in areas with very few facilities.

Please tell me there is someone else out there who thinks this 2035 ban is just a load of swank and the government are going to have to massively back track as the deadline gets closer?

PS If you are a Hybrid user I bet you are mad already!

OP posts:
mencken · 14/02/2020 10:23

interesting article from the national grid and I am slightly reassured about grid capacity. But not about windfarms which are polluting, short term, need diesel backup and obviously don't work a lot of the time.

200-300 mile range? In your dreams at the moment, sorry.

and I repeat - find me one for £3k that will last five years and cost maybe the same in servicing/fixes and I'll buy it.

DGRossetti · 14/02/2020 10:42

But not about windfarms which are polluting, short term, need diesel backup and obviously don't work a lot of the time.

And are coming to end of life ...

www.energyvoice.com/opinion/199653/decommissioning-on-horizon-for-uks-early-commercial-windfarms/

Last month, the energy sector trade body RenewableUK issued a report warning that the UK could lose more than 8GW of onshore wind generation if older windfarms are not upgraded with larger and more efficient turbines in the next 20 years. The report anticipates that around 17.5% of the UK’s entire power output could be lost and that the low carbon electricity generation gap of up to 18% of current demand by 2030 which the UK faces could grow if existing windfarms are not repowered.

(contd)

If anyone. Government, industry or consumers was as remotely into electric vehicles as they claim to be, that report would not be a year old. It would be at least 10 years old.

prh47bridge · 14/02/2020 14:10

£20k for a car is not happening and never will be

It has already happened. You can get a brand new Skoda Citigo for less than £20k. As electric cars become more popular prices will fall due to increased production volumes.

200-300 mile range? In your dreams at the moment, sorry

Again showing how out of touch you are. There are 3 Tesla models with a range in excess of 300 miles. There are a further 6 models from 6 different manufacturers with a range in excess of 200 miles. The cheapest of these costs around £30k brand new.

find me one for £3k that will last five years and cost maybe the same in servicing/fixes and I'll buy it

Second hand prices aren't that low yet, mainly because electric cars haven't been around for long enough. I expect you will see used cars at that price soon.

I note you are also concerned about electric cars being automatic. It isn't difficult to adjust to an automatic car. Some manufacturers are working on vehicles with a 5- or 6-speed gearbox for the benefit of those who want to stick with that way of driving. However, most electric vehicles won't have a gearbox at all as it simply isn't needed - an electric motor has a much greater range of torque/speed output at its disposal than an internal combustion engine.

DGRossetti · 14/02/2020 14:45

Some manufacturers are working on vehicles with a 5- or 6-speed gearbox for the benefit of those who want to stick with that way of driving.

Hmm

Why, in the name of all that's holy would anyone waste the R&D, not to mention mechanical complexity of a gearbox on a drive train that doesn't need one just to keep a few snowflake drivers happy ?

I'd be curious to know which manufacturers and what models we can expect to see crunching their way along the roads in the future.

Presumably they just managed to coax the designers who put spark plugs on diesels out of retirement before it was too late ?

Kpo58 · 14/02/2020 15:22

Why is the environmental cost for making the batteries for electric cars never mentioned? They are incredibly environmentally unfriendly and the fuel probably isn't much better as coal and gas is still used. As long as the pollution is out of sight, it's out of mind too.

Frazzled2207 · 14/02/2020 16:08

@Kpo58 it is mentioned quite a lot. Basically the more EVs we make the better they are.

See this article by the RAC

www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/are-electric-cars-actually-worse-for-the-environment/#battery-production-concerns

Frazzled2207 · 14/02/2020 16:10

I do agree that there is a concern re ethics and methods of mining for lithium, cobalt etc.

Motacilla · 14/02/2020 22:01

That cost is mentioned by those involved in the technology and ways around it are being worked on, for example by IBM.

rrg1 · 16/02/2020 07:04

There is no joined up thinking on this issue whatsoever, all part of a far bigger agenda including the man-made climate change hoax!

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7968085/Eco-edict-new-cars-electric-15-years-doomed-backfire-says-JOHN-NAISH.html

DGRossetti · 16/02/2020 10:57

There is no joined up thinking on this issue whatsoever

Because joining the dots means fewer cars, fewer foreign holidays, less food, less money and a lower standard of life than 20 years ago.

Much better to let the next generation do the dot joining ... we'll sit this one out, thank you very much. By all means, save the planet. But could you do it a bit more quietly, please ?

As this thread alone demonstrates, there's plenty that could be done that isn't. Hardly a crisis then, eh ?

scaryteacher · 16/02/2020 11:28

A couple of comments....

Hydrogen is being introduced in Belgium. One supermarket chain has a hydrogen filling station and runs 18 of its cars on hydrogen. They are partnering with the company that runs the gas grid to have a green hydrogen plant in Antwerp. Worth watching, and I think Toyota are doing a lot of R&D into hydrogen cars.

Driving a manual is not being a snowflake.

I think, whatever the puff from the power companies, there are issues with how we provide enough power for EVs other domestic and commercial needs, and we are a fair way from sorting that out.

We won't be buying EVs, but waiting for hydrogen technology to take off. I think all our eggs in the electricity basket is daft, especially when cyber warfare is a front to he taken seriously. Someone hacks in and takes the grid down, and then we are stuffed.

PhoneLock · 16/02/2020 14:25

I think, whatever the puff from the power companies, there are issues with how we provide enough power for EVs other domestic and commercial needs, and we are a fair way from sorting that out.

If there isn't going to be enough electricity to charge EVs and supply other domestic and commercial needs, how are you going to produce the hydrogen cleanly? You need to use electricity to do do it. The most used alternative is methane steam reformation that converts natural gas (a fossil fuel) to hydrogen and carbon monoxide.

Also what are you going to do with the hydrogen when you have it? You could burn it in an internal combustion engine at 17-21% efficiency at the wheels or you could use it in a fuel cell to create electricity at 60% efficiency. If you are going to do the latter, you might as well just use the electricity you started with to charge batteries instead.

DGRossetti · 16/02/2020 14:43

Renewables are probably ideally suited to producing hydrogen as an energy storage mechanism.

But the best way to store and transport hydrogen is still to add a few oxygen and carbon molecules ...

Whatever happened to gasohol ?

MysticMeghan · 16/02/2020 19:04

Hydrogen is even more explosive than petrol.

What do you do with the excess carbon monoxide produced as a by product of the production of hydrogen?

OP posts:
PhoneLock · 16/02/2020 20:42

What do you do with the excess carbon monoxide produced as a by product of the production of hydrogen?

If you produce it by electrolysis of water, the only by-product is oxygen.

Producing hydrogen from methane is pointless from an environmental perspective. You might as well keep burning petrol or diesel.

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