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Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?

215 replies

MysticMeghan · 05/02/2020 10:27

The news is full of stories about electric cars, how marvellous they are for the environment and how wonderful it's going to be when we all have them. But as someone of modest means, I can't help wondering if this is going to be something that is embraced by the wealthy and those of us who can't afford to shell out £30,000 for a new car are going to be left behind.

I know there is car leasing, but you have to be able to be loan worthy to qualify for that. If you are on UC or working a part time minimum wage and you NEED a car to get to work because you live in a rural area or work unsocial hours, what are you going to do? There's not going to be much of a market in 2nd hand electric vehicles, so buying an old banger for £500 (or cheaper) to get around isn't going to be an option anymore.

The other thing that occurred to me was charging. I live in a street of terraced houses where we fight to park outside our own house because there are no driveways. We all park on the same side of the street to let fire engines and buses get by. Even with occasional charging, there are still going to be electric cables trailing across pavements. What about people across the road? How do they charge from home? Trail their cable across the road? What about blind people or wheelchair users trying to get along pavements? The estate is just streets and streets of tightly packed houses built in the 1950s. There is simply nowhere to install public charging points even if we wanted to.

At my work, we have 250 spaces for about 500 staff. People who arrive late have to park on the street. We currently have about 8 electric charging points for which there is fierce competition and already loads of problems getting people to move mid morning so that others can get in and charge because there is simply nowhere for people who move their vehicles to actually go. I have no doubt our employer would pay to convert the entire car park, but it needs to be at least double to size to allow everyone to charge. We are on an industrial estate with lots of parking restrictions. I realise that the simple answer to this is public transport, but for me to get to work by public transport in time for a 6am start simply isn't going to happen because the buses and trains for those distances don't exist at that hour of the morning. I work in Edinburgh but live in a different region (county) because I just can't afford Edinburgh house prices.

DH works in a rural area where there is ONE public charging point shared between about 17 villages. He has to commute further than the the range of a current electric vehicle and he uses tools and is an only able to work during daylight hours, so parking miles away and walking a cement mixer up the street just isn't practical. Assuming technology could improve to the extent that the range of vehicles could be increased and he could find on street charging near to where he is working, there's still going to be large sections of the day when he is likely to be hanging around waiting to charge a vehicle where he isn't actually earning.

The government are actually REMOVING the subsidy for purchasing electric vehicles in March so there doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on. And whilst I'm sure that electric vehicles are going to be a real boon in cities, I can't help thinking that in rural areas, where people NEED cars and there isn't even a proper mobile phone network or even mains gas in some places, people are really going to struggle. Where DH works the area earns most of its revenue from tourism, with people driving considerable distances but then just mainly staying for the day. Are they REALLY going to put in 40/50 charging points in a remote fishing village? Or will people have to beg the use of someone's private supply so they can drive home?

I recently read an article where an electric car user admitted that driving to visit his in-laws in Norfolk was quite inconvenient because he had to stop and charge about 5 times (and no doubt stay overnight somewhere as well). But he said as he only does that once a year he can live with it. What if you have to drive considerable distances every day or every week to look after sick relatives? There is this assumption that everyone lives identical lives with at most a 15 mile commute. That nobody really drives long distances very often. That's not my reality at all.

I know by the time all this happens, cars will have a better range and need less charging, but whereas you can easily integrate electric cars into a fairly modern country like Norway, this is Britain with our creaking Victorian and post war infrastructure and short of turning the country into one huge car park how is this going to work? Even in Norway they had problems. Affluent city dwellers with great public transport links embraced the changes. The rural poor have had to radically re-think their lifestyles, with less opportunity to travel, work and socialise they are more or less stuck in areas with very few facilities.

Please tell me there is someone else out there who thinks this 2035 ban is just a load of swank and the government are going to have to massively back track as the deadline gets closer?

PS If you are a Hybrid user I bet you are mad already!

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 11/02/2020 14:37

How would people feel about their cars nipping out autonomously at night to recharge themselves at the local supermarket car park (which would be deserted midnight - 6am) which is fitted out with a line of charging points ?

No ?

Or is the future just a different version of now ?

(That was a blue sky idea that was mooted 5 years ago now ...)

poshme · 11/02/2020 14:42

@ DGRossetti USO for broadband isn't really making much difference tbh.

BT/openreach are telling people they can have it... then quoting thousands (per house) to connect people. So it doesn't happen.
Royal Mail it's the same price for everyone. Not the case with broadband.
I could get super fast broadband- if I pay over £15,000 to get it. I'm only half a mile from people who have it but the way the infrastructure is set up, I'm not allowed to connect that route.

Super fast chargers will be the responsibility of individuals in rural areas. Government won't help.

Motacilla · 11/02/2020 14:57

Maybe there would be batteries built like trolley cases with wheels that you'd remove and bring in to charge overnight if you didn't have access to a charging point?

Hereinthemidlands · 11/02/2020 15:06

Pmk to read later, this is very interesting

DGRossetti · 11/02/2020 15:22

Maybe there would be batteries built like trolley cases with wheels that you'd remove and bring in to charge overnight if you didn't have access to a charging point?

If you want to fundamentally redesign electric cars from scratch. Most of the current available actually use the battery pack as part of the chassis.

www.slideshare.net/FAL1/electric-vehicle-chassis-battery-systems-29166157

The absolute lack of interest in manufacturers creating inter/ex-changeable battery packs is one reason why I'm not hailing EVs as the next best thing since milk floats.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 18:19

We have one and we love it. However our lifestyle - 95% of journeys local- suits it well and we have off street parking which means we just charge overnight twice a week. Rarely go to a public charger.

We have switched £100 per month fuel bill for increase in electricity bill of around £8 per month. We got the car second hand for £20k but we'll be quids in in a few years (needed to buy a new car anyway).

However It is def not a case of everyone switching as pp have said. Not realistic for practical reasons. We just need to have less cars and travel less.
(Electric) Public transport, walking and especially cycling are the future. Not EVs.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 18:21

To those saying they are dangerously quiet that is rubbish. Soon it will be the law that that they make an artificial noise. But above 10mph there
Is a "rolling across the road" noise just like any other car.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 18:23

@TheHagOnTheHill
You don't need to "return" batteries. They are built these days to last the lifetime of the car. Over time they degrade a bit but we're expecting 80% of our current range once we get to 12 years. By which time there will be a viable replacement option.

TheHagOnTheHill · 11/02/2020 19:02

That's great but since I do not have the thousands for a new car I would be buying second hand so may need a new battery or refirb of the old one(someone mentioned this in an earlier post).I wouldn't be able to afford a new one and I suspect that obsolescence will be built in so that new batteries(probablyImproved)Wouldn't fit old cars.
I'm asking because I live somewhere will almost no public transport,need a car but can not afford a new petrol car never mind an EV.
I love the idea of an EV but think it may be behond my means.

Mlou32 · 11/02/2020 19:18

I got rid of my car a good few months ago, I was barely using it. However I have joined a nursing agency and some of the shifts are a distance away, in other cities. I accepted a shift around 30 miles away and so hired a car for the day. It was an electric car. Perhaps I was being quite naive but I thought I would get further than 40 miles before it ran out of charge! Not very handy if one wants to drive for some distance and let's face it, a lot of people want to drive around without having to constantly find a charging port to charge their car. Hopefully the availability of charging ports and the battery life on thaw vehicles will improve as more electric cars come on to the roads. I'm sure they will.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 19:50

@mlou that is not typical range for a new Ev. Ours does 150 which is more than enough for the cast majority to be able to do between charges. The newest EVs on the market can do 230+.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 19:54

@TheHagOnTheHill
Again not necessarily. My biL bought a several years old EV for about £6k - although the cost will still be prohibitive to some over the course of a few years it balances out. Yes range is less in the older cars but still manageable and battery replacement is not an actual "thing"...yet anyway.

Anyway I don't think the government said anything about banning diesel/petrol cars did it. I thought it was just banning the sale of NEW ones.

Second hand ones will be sold for a very long time after that alongside second hand EVs I would expect.

BertieBotts · 11/02/2020 20:23

Oh yeah, a self driving car driving itself off to charge is a good point, hadn't thought of that. I do think properly self driving cars are quite a long way off, though. I've watched a few youtube videos and the Tesla autopilot for example, while it works well on US roads it is massively confused by UK ones.

picklesdragonisawelshdragon · 11/02/2020 20:44

A car took itself from somewhere on the south coast up to the midlands recently, didn't it? They are learning, and will manage soon.

There is an art to getting the most out of your battery. It's basic fuel efficiency, gentle acceleration and braking.

BertieBotts · 11/02/2020 21:50

A single car being able to do it is still a long way from it being generally allowed, I reckon. Currently you still have to have someone in the driver's seat able to take over in case of emergency, I think?

Mlou32 · 11/02/2020 22:42

@Frazzled2207 it was a Renault Zoe EV. Looking it up, it is meant to do over 200 miles per charge. When I picked it up, it was at 87% charge. I drove 26 miles and parked up, at which point it was at 11%. So perhaps not 40 miles exactly but not much more. I did have on the air con and lights but surely that wouldn't have drained that much battery? I don't know, it was the first time I've driven an electric car.

Frazzled2207 · 11/02/2020 22:54

@Mlou32 that does sound rubbish. Air con does bring it down but not that much. I'm only guessing it was an older one where the battery hasn't retained its charge very well- the newer models are much better - Technology is moving on all the time.
Definitely not typical of a recently bought EV anyway.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 08:31

There is an art to getting the most out of your battery. It's basic fuel efficiency, gentle acceleration and braking.

Another reason why EVs are peaches to the cream of autonomous vehicles. If we let them drive themselves -especially "in mesh" - then the amount of energy needed overall could be reduced by about 20% (Or 50%, judging by the fuel economy on the last car I hired) before you blink. Also meshed cars would make more efficient use of the road space and reduce pollution from friction braking.

Loubeale · 12/02/2020 08:46

Battery technology is the key and until you can get 350-500 miles on a 5 minute charge you don't have a practical solution. When we get to that point in development you'd just use a charging station , as you do a petrol station, and no infrastructure is necessary. You also need to simplify the traction technology so you can offer electric conversion kits for existing cars. Classic car movement is already look at that.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 12/02/2020 09:00

The absolute lack of interest in manufacturers creating inter/ex-changeable battery packs is one reason why I'm not hailing EVs as the next best thing since milk floats.

That would just sort itself out though like the Betamax thing.

But I’m not keen on the whole batteries thing. Hydrogen is the way to go. And yes, public transport; the car equivalent of the Boris bike. But also much better conventional public transport and a massive need for transport policy to stop being so Londoncentric.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 09:35

That would just sort itself out though like the Betamax thing.

Grin

What do you think sorted that out, by the way ?

Hydrogen is the way to go

Not really.

StormTreader · 12/02/2020 10:25

EVs work well for people right now because there arent many of them - 6 EV charging spaces in a carpark work great if theres always 3 of them free when you arrive.
Once uptake increases and even 10% of people are driving EVs, where do you charge them? 20 minutes to charge a car is going to be a problem if you're 15th in the queue for 1 of the 6 spaces.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 10:38

Once uptake increases and even 10% of people are driving EVs, where do you charge them? 20 minutes to charge a car is going to be a problem if you're 15th in the queue for 1 of the 6 spaces.

Surely that's a business opportunity for a budding post-Brexit Britain ?

DGRs EasyCharge

Does your electric car need a charge ? Can't afford to wait for fucking ever while you queue and charge ? Sign up to "EasyCharge"* for a small monthly subscription we will collect you car while you work and do all the waiting and drinking coffee and making friends you can't be arsed with, and return it ready for your drive home. We'll even leave a chocolate mint on the dashboard. Terms and conditions apply. Your self respect is at risk if you do decide to make payments.

*Incoming from Stelios in 3..2..1.. Grin

MysticMeghan · 12/02/2020 10:56

I can't help thinking that electric cars are marvellous NOW when there are only a small amount of people using them, no problem about finding spaces to charge and no-one hassling you to finish up. There's no driving around despairing that all the charging points are taken and you're down to 11% charge and having to pop out from your work every 5 minutes to see if someone has moved so you can hop into the charging space. There's plenty of spaces to charge BECAUSE hardly anyone is driving them and it's actually EASIER to park because they're dedicated spaces and the gas guzzlers can't use them.

Just wait until more people start using them but the number of charging points doesn't increase as quickly. People in Britain are notoriously tight arsed when it comes to investing in infrastructure UNLESS they can turn a quick profit from it. Watch how people will begin to moan.

OP posts:
PhoneLock · 12/02/2020 10:56

We have switched £100 per month fuel bill for increase in electricity bill of around £8 per month. We got the car second hand for £20k but we'll be quids in in a few years (needed to buy a new car anyway)

I doubt the money saving argument will last for long. It's almost inevitable that fuel duty will be transferred from petrol and diesel to electricity used to charge vehicles sooner or later.

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