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Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?

215 replies

MysticMeghan · 05/02/2020 10:27

The news is full of stories about electric cars, how marvellous they are for the environment and how wonderful it's going to be when we all have them. But as someone of modest means, I can't help wondering if this is going to be something that is embraced by the wealthy and those of us who can't afford to shell out £30,000 for a new car are going to be left behind.

I know there is car leasing, but you have to be able to be loan worthy to qualify for that. If you are on UC or working a part time minimum wage and you NEED a car to get to work because you live in a rural area or work unsocial hours, what are you going to do? There's not going to be much of a market in 2nd hand electric vehicles, so buying an old banger for £500 (or cheaper) to get around isn't going to be an option anymore.

The other thing that occurred to me was charging. I live in a street of terraced houses where we fight to park outside our own house because there are no driveways. We all park on the same side of the street to let fire engines and buses get by. Even with occasional charging, there are still going to be electric cables trailing across pavements. What about people across the road? How do they charge from home? Trail their cable across the road? What about blind people or wheelchair users trying to get along pavements? The estate is just streets and streets of tightly packed houses built in the 1950s. There is simply nowhere to install public charging points even if we wanted to.

At my work, we have 250 spaces for about 500 staff. People who arrive late have to park on the street. We currently have about 8 electric charging points for which there is fierce competition and already loads of problems getting people to move mid morning so that others can get in and charge because there is simply nowhere for people who move their vehicles to actually go. I have no doubt our employer would pay to convert the entire car park, but it needs to be at least double to size to allow everyone to charge. We are on an industrial estate with lots of parking restrictions. I realise that the simple answer to this is public transport, but for me to get to work by public transport in time for a 6am start simply isn't going to happen because the buses and trains for those distances don't exist at that hour of the morning. I work in Edinburgh but live in a different region (county) because I just can't afford Edinburgh house prices.

DH works in a rural area where there is ONE public charging point shared between about 17 villages. He has to commute further than the the range of a current electric vehicle and he uses tools and is an only able to work during daylight hours, so parking miles away and walking a cement mixer up the street just isn't practical. Assuming technology could improve to the extent that the range of vehicles could be increased and he could find on street charging near to where he is working, there's still going to be large sections of the day when he is likely to be hanging around waiting to charge a vehicle where he isn't actually earning.

The government are actually REMOVING the subsidy for purchasing electric vehicles in March so there doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on. And whilst I'm sure that electric vehicles are going to be a real boon in cities, I can't help thinking that in rural areas, where people NEED cars and there isn't even a proper mobile phone network or even mains gas in some places, people are really going to struggle. Where DH works the area earns most of its revenue from tourism, with people driving considerable distances but then just mainly staying for the day. Are they REALLY going to put in 40/50 charging points in a remote fishing village? Or will people have to beg the use of someone's private supply so they can drive home?

I recently read an article where an electric car user admitted that driving to visit his in-laws in Norfolk was quite inconvenient because he had to stop and charge about 5 times (and no doubt stay overnight somewhere as well). But he said as he only does that once a year he can live with it. What if you have to drive considerable distances every day or every week to look after sick relatives? There is this assumption that everyone lives identical lives with at most a 15 mile commute. That nobody really drives long distances very often. That's not my reality at all.

I know by the time all this happens, cars will have a better range and need less charging, but whereas you can easily integrate electric cars into a fairly modern country like Norway, this is Britain with our creaking Victorian and post war infrastructure and short of turning the country into one huge car park how is this going to work? Even in Norway they had problems. Affluent city dwellers with great public transport links embraced the changes. The rural poor have had to radically re-think their lifestyles, with less opportunity to travel, work and socialise they are more or less stuck in areas with very few facilities.

Please tell me there is someone else out there who thinks this 2035 ban is just a load of swank and the government are going to have to massively back track as the deadline gets closer?

PS If you are a Hybrid user I bet you are mad already!

OP posts:
Frazzled2207 · 12/02/2020 11:02

@PhoneLock I don't disagree but the government is going to have to incentivise people to buy EVs if it is serious about stopping new petrol/diesel sales.

Pasithea · 12/02/2020 11:03

I hate electric cars. I have had two close accidents because you can’t hear them. I was out on my horse. My OH says he can’t hear them when he cycles especially if it’s wet

PhoneLock · 12/02/2020 11:11

but the government is going to have to incentivise people to buy EVs if it is serious about stopping new petrol/diesel sales.

I hope you are correct, but eventually the supply of serviceable ICE cars will dry up. Having no personal transport may be all the incentive needed

TheHagOnTheHill · 12/02/2020 12:56

I think there will be a high surge it people buying new petrol cars in the year or so before the switch off point.
Maybe all new houses should be built with an external charging point,can't be too expensive to do during the build.
Do we have the generating capacity is houses are to be heated by electricity too?
Pasrithea,I would have thought that you would appreciate not having to breath in fumes.Cycles are also silent and a menace in the wrong hands.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 13:25

Maybe all new houses should be built with an external charging point,can't be too expensive to do during the build.

The time to have decided that was .... 10 years ago. If we aren't doing it now (and we aren't) then it will take at least 5 years to get that into the system. The only saving grace is we've decided not to build new houses at all.

MysticMeghan · 12/02/2020 14:19

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51474769

So they're now thinking of bringing the ban forward to 2032 or even 2030. But have admitted that the Government are not going to fund the provision of a public charging network and it is acknowledged that there's no much to incentivise companies to invest in them as there's sod all money to be made.

I know I keep banging on about this but WHAT ABOUT RURAL AREAS? People there are heavily reliant on cars, have sod all public transport and very little facilities in the way of banks, shops, post offices as it is so have to travel huge distances to do basic stuff and to even stay employed. And not all have driveways because in fishing villages etc. that just doesn't happen

Getting electric cars established in rural areas would be a key to unlocking the electric car revolution. But as with everything cities like London will be the main areas of investment and fandom. And people in rural areas will be shafted as usual.

OP posts:
user1497207191 · 12/02/2020 15:47

Getting electric cars established in rural areas would be a key to unlocking the electric car revolution. But as with everything cities like London will be the main areas of investment and fandom. And people in rural areas will be shafted as usual.

Yep, fully agree. A few major cities already have fantastic public transport (compared with rural areas) and many people don't need cars, yet they're the same areas that will be provided with the electric car infrastructure.

Rural areas, towns and smaller cities already often have barely existent public transport, especially evenings and weekends, and are unlikely to get charging infrastructure, so, shafted again, as you say.

user1497207191 · 12/02/2020 15:51

I don't disagree but the government is going to have to incentivise people to buy EVs if it is serious about stopping new petrol/diesel sales.

Govt is already incentivising - grants for buyers, low/zero road tax, only 5% vat on electric, no taxable benefits in kind on electric company cars.

Trouble is, they're going to have a hell of a huge loss of tax revenue if and when people start giving up petrol/diesel cars - VAT and duty on fuel is a very high proportion of the price of a gallon, road tax is higher for petrol/diesel cars, as is company car benefit in kind taxation.

The govt can't give up on all the tax it gets from petrol/diesel vehicles AND incentivise electric cars, AND improve public transport.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 15:55

Getting electric cars established in rural areas would be a key to unlocking the electric car revolution.

And is happening as we speak ...

Oh, no it's not.

As some posters on this thread have twigged, there are a few country miles between the governments cups and lips.

On a day when it's been revealed that even the Amazon is now adding to the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, it may be that previous climate models and calls to action have been too cautious.

Imagine if we had to stop producing carbon dioxide by 2021. Or else.

I'd start prepping for "else".

mencken · 12/02/2020 16:19

an electric car (even with the annoying automatic transmission) would be ideal for me most of the time. The car is only used 2-3 times a week and in the winter only for journeys of under 20 miles. I've got a driveway so could plug it in.

BUT it would be useless for longer journeys (which happen in the summer) and £20k on a car is out of the question, with the driving I do it will take decades to break even, and it won't last that long even if I did. Not happening.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 16:21

an electric car (even with the annoying automatic transmission)

What annoying automatic transmission ?

Frazzled2207 · 12/02/2020 16:28

@mencken why do you think useless?
We do long journeys in an EV. You use rapid charging points which are present at virtually all
Motorway service stations and elsewhere. Charging typically takes half an hour, say every 150/200 miles or so. Ultra rapids are being rolled out which will make Charging possible in 10-15minutes. Are you saying it's impossible to conceive of stopping for a coffee break every couple of hours? How is that different to filling up your petrol car? You don't have to stay with your vehicle to charge it unlike a petrol car.

I do concede that for those doing long journeys a LOT, EVs are not necessarily that practical. But if like us a handful of times a year it's totally fine.

mencken · 12/02/2020 18:03

er....not every A to B in the UK is on a motorway!!! I am fifty miles from the start of my nearest motorway and that wouldn't be the way I would be travelling. Even if I were, first service station would be out of range.

This part of the UK is called Wales, if you haven't heard of it. It has petrol stations although my car has a 400 mile range.

£20k for a car is not happening and never will be.

as I understand it all EVs are automatic. Perhaps I am wrong.

Frazzled2207 · 12/02/2020 18:15

@mencken the vast majority of charge points are not on motorways. I'm just making the point that long distances are totally doable.

Yes I know Wales well I am Welsh.
And recently drove to Aberystwyth and back in an EV. It was fine though granted mid wales could do with more chargers. A55 and m4 corridors fine.

MysticMeghan · 12/02/2020 18:30

As I understand it all EVs are automatic. Perhaps I am wrong

As a driver of a DSG (which is NOT an automatic, it has 7 gears and you can either change gear yourself or get the car to do it for you which saves petrol) I don't find not having a clutch too much of an issue. I learnt to drive on a manual but smashed my left knee to bits in a car accident when I was hit by a lorry, so now find dipping a clutch painful.

Yes, you are correct that EVs don't have a clutch. In fact they don't have a lot of the engine gubbins associated with petrol and diesel. They don't need them. I don't drive one and have never been inside one but my understanding is that you press the accelerator to go forward and lift your foot off it to come to a stop. So it would be a new way of driving even for me. Most models have a brake pedal but I think some of the newer ones are even doing away with that as you don't really need it except for emergency braking.

I think in terms of gears you have to select forward or reverse much as you would do with an automatic/DSG. But no doubt someone who actually drives one of these things will be along in a minute to explain.

I don't think I would have any problem driving one as I am already used to not using my left foot at all. But the lack of engine noise might take a bit of getting used to.

OP posts:
MysticMeghan · 12/02/2020 18:35

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7994957/Sales-new-petrol-diesel-cars-banned-TWELVE-years-time-fight-climate-change.html

It's coming closer, guys. This time next week it'll be 2021. Hmm

OP posts:
TalbotAMan · 12/02/2020 18:42

Maybe all new houses should be built with an external charging point,can't be too expensive to do during the build.

Round here it's a planning requirement for new houses:
Development type Minimum provision
Houses and flats with dedicated off-street parking One dedicated 32 amp radial circuit or Type 2 charging point per dwelling
Developments of 10 or more houses and flats with unallocated parking One dedicated Type 2 electric vehicle charging point per 10 dwellings
Non-residential development – staff parking (10 or more parking spaces) One dedicated Type 2 electric vehicle charging point per 30 parking bays
Retail/ Leisure development – customer parking (10 or more parking spaces) One dedicated Type 2 electric vehicle charging point per 1,000 sqm commercial floorspace

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 18:47

Round here it's a planning requirement for new houses:

and the space for parking ?

TalbotAMan · 12/02/2020 18:48

As I understand it all EVs are automatic. Perhaps I am wrong

No and Yes. Almost all (except for the Porsche Taycan) have a single fixed gear, so there is no need to change gears and so no clutch pedal. From the driver's viewpoint it is pretty much the same as an automatic. The driver has to select forward or reverse, but reverse is achieved by making the electric motor go backwards, which is something conventional engines cannot do. Similarly, most braking is done by switching the motor to be a generator, which pulls the energy from the wheels and turns it back to electricity to be sent back to the battery.

The Taycan has a two-speed gearbox, as that is theoretically more efficient. That gearbox is automatic. For all other makers (so far) the cost of a two-speed gearbox is more than the value of the efficiency savings.

PhoneLock · 12/02/2020 20:40

but reverse is achieved by making the electric motor go backwards, which is something conventional engines cannot do.

They can. Look up the Messerschmitt KR200.

TalbotAMan · 12/02/2020 20:45

They can. Look up the Messerschmitt KR200.

Strictly true. But that's because it's a 2-stroke engine and 2-strokes haven't been used in European market cars for about 50 years now. You can't run a 4-stroke in reverse.

DGRossetti · 12/02/2020 21:15

One game changer for EVs (and a lot of electric tech) would be room temperature superconductors.

Like fusion power "about 10 years off" for 30 years ....

VivaLeBeaver · 12/02/2020 22:08

I don’t think one charging point per house will be enough. Most houses, certainly where I am which is rural, are 2 car houses.

Megan2018 · 12/02/2020 22:12

@VivaLeBeaver We are a multi EV household and only need one charger! It is rare that we both need to charge on the same night. I think it only happened once in 6 years.

Megan2018 · 12/02/2020 22:15

My favourite feature of my cars has been setting the departure times via the app so I always have a perfectly warm and defrosted car or perfectly air conditioned car.

Nothing more satisfying than listening to luddites scraping their windscreens whilst you are still in bed Grin

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