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Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?

215 replies

MysticMeghan · 05/02/2020 10:27

The news is full of stories about electric cars, how marvellous they are for the environment and how wonderful it's going to be when we all have them. But as someone of modest means, I can't help wondering if this is going to be something that is embraced by the wealthy and those of us who can't afford to shell out £30,000 for a new car are going to be left behind.

I know there is car leasing, but you have to be able to be loan worthy to qualify for that. If you are on UC or working a part time minimum wage and you NEED a car to get to work because you live in a rural area or work unsocial hours, what are you going to do? There's not going to be much of a market in 2nd hand electric vehicles, so buying an old banger for £500 (or cheaper) to get around isn't going to be an option anymore.

The other thing that occurred to me was charging. I live in a street of terraced houses where we fight to park outside our own house because there are no driveways. We all park on the same side of the street to let fire engines and buses get by. Even with occasional charging, there are still going to be electric cables trailing across pavements. What about people across the road? How do they charge from home? Trail their cable across the road? What about blind people or wheelchair users trying to get along pavements? The estate is just streets and streets of tightly packed houses built in the 1950s. There is simply nowhere to install public charging points even if we wanted to.

At my work, we have 250 spaces for about 500 staff. People who arrive late have to park on the street. We currently have about 8 electric charging points for which there is fierce competition and already loads of problems getting people to move mid morning so that others can get in and charge because there is simply nowhere for people who move their vehicles to actually go. I have no doubt our employer would pay to convert the entire car park, but it needs to be at least double to size to allow everyone to charge. We are on an industrial estate with lots of parking restrictions. I realise that the simple answer to this is public transport, but for me to get to work by public transport in time for a 6am start simply isn't going to happen because the buses and trains for those distances don't exist at that hour of the morning. I work in Edinburgh but live in a different region (county) because I just can't afford Edinburgh house prices.

DH works in a rural area where there is ONE public charging point shared between about 17 villages. He has to commute further than the the range of a current electric vehicle and he uses tools and is an only able to work during daylight hours, so parking miles away and walking a cement mixer up the street just isn't practical. Assuming technology could improve to the extent that the range of vehicles could be increased and he could find on street charging near to where he is working, there's still going to be large sections of the day when he is likely to be hanging around waiting to charge a vehicle where he isn't actually earning.

The government are actually REMOVING the subsidy for purchasing electric vehicles in March so there doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on. And whilst I'm sure that electric vehicles are going to be a real boon in cities, I can't help thinking that in rural areas, where people NEED cars and there isn't even a proper mobile phone network or even mains gas in some places, people are really going to struggle. Where DH works the area earns most of its revenue from tourism, with people driving considerable distances but then just mainly staying for the day. Are they REALLY going to put in 40/50 charging points in a remote fishing village? Or will people have to beg the use of someone's private supply so they can drive home?

I recently read an article where an electric car user admitted that driving to visit his in-laws in Norfolk was quite inconvenient because he had to stop and charge about 5 times (and no doubt stay overnight somewhere as well). But he said as he only does that once a year he can live with it. What if you have to drive considerable distances every day or every week to look after sick relatives? There is this assumption that everyone lives identical lives with at most a 15 mile commute. That nobody really drives long distances very often. That's not my reality at all.

I know by the time all this happens, cars will have a better range and need less charging, but whereas you can easily integrate electric cars into a fairly modern country like Norway, this is Britain with our creaking Victorian and post war infrastructure and short of turning the country into one huge car park how is this going to work? Even in Norway they had problems. Affluent city dwellers with great public transport links embraced the changes. The rural poor have had to radically re-think their lifestyles, with less opportunity to travel, work and socialise they are more or less stuck in areas with very few facilities.

Please tell me there is someone else out there who thinks this 2035 ban is just a load of swank and the government are going to have to massively back track as the deadline gets closer?

PS If you are a Hybrid user I bet you are mad already!

OP posts:
VivaLeBeaver · 12/02/2020 22:17

That’s interesting @megan2018 I’d assumed they need charging every night for most people.

Megan2018 · 12/02/2020 22:22

I do 12k miles a year, only charge every 2-3 days usually unless going further than my usual commute etc. Most people don’t put petrol in daily, most people drive less than 100 miles a day. I think the average commute is pretty miniscule compared to range.
When I first switched we only had 1 EV car so did charge most nights, buy once you trust the range you get much more relaxed

Frazzled2207 · 12/02/2020 22:40

Very unlikely that you would need two chargers. We charge ours every 4 nights each. For emergencies a 2nd car could use a 3 pin plug.

MysticMeghan · 12/02/2020 22:51

Ok so I went and had a look at the RAC site as I am a member and was pretty intrigued about what might happen on motorways if EVs ran out of charge. The RAC have developed mobile chargers that can charge stranded EVs, but as far as I can make out they only have 6 based mainly in cities and will roll them out gradually to areas with the highest call-outs. So low populated rural areas where they will probably be needed the most will probably find that they are the last to get access to them.

EVs present a particular challenge as many cannot be towed normally and ideally should be transported with all wheels off the ground which usually requires a flat-bed vehicle. So, if an electric car runs out of charge in a busy urban location, such as a red route in London or even just a narrow road, it can’t be towed to the nearest charge point – and is likely to cause traffic jams and frustration.

Well this is all very well and good but I hardly ever have to call out the RAC but I can foresee increased call-outs and longer waiting times. I'm also quite intrigued as to what might happen on stretches of motorway with no hard shoulder. First of all, how do you even GET your dead car out of the way of other vehicles if the unthinkable happens (I am assuming that you can't just release the handbrake and push?). And does everyone then have to wait patiently behind you whilst the RAC turn up and patiently recharge your car with enough juice to get it to a proper charging point? (which might be a service station 20 miles away or longer if we are talking Scottish Borders).

Finally, let's imagine that you are on a motorway doing 70 and suddenly run out of charge for whatever reason. Battery dies, electrical fault, whatever. You are NOT going to slowly coast to a stop. You are going to STOP right there. And ten dozen cars behind you are going to run into the back of you.

Just sayin'

OP posts:
Frazzled2207 · 12/02/2020 22:54

How is this different to running out of petrol? EVs don't just die without warning - if you are running out of charge they beep at you incessantly so unless you were a complete idiot you'd pull over.

Wildthyme · 12/02/2020 23:00

Electric charge stations like Fastned will become more commonplace, there's one in Sunderland and its always busy.

Legoroses · 12/02/2020 23:15

You can literally watch the car telling you '54 miles', '53 miles' etc. If you ran out of charge
you would be a gigantic eejit. It is probably more difficult to run out of charge unexpectedly in an electric car than to run on fumes in a petrol car.

Plus the electric car is less likely to grind to a halt because the clutch has gone etc. Because it's just a battery! So many less working, grinding parts to screw up. There will be less call outs and decreased waiting times.

I'm enjoying that all these electric cars suddenly stopping because their drivers can't read numbers or gauges is likely to cause traffic jams and frustration, because that doesn't happen at all now with petrol and diesel cars. I never have any interruptions to my journey and people are very good tempered at all times.

picklesdragonisawelshdragon · 13/02/2020 08:52

A friend's son has a Tesla. He drives from the continent to the U.K. regularly.
He enters his destination, the car calculates the route and charging points. It's fabulous. One day that will be mainstream tech for everyone. In the meantime, we'll be swapping over as and when our individual situations allow. Yes, if you are a low income family with no drive then you'll be later to the switch than most, but all the problems will have been ironed out by then.

The biggest inconvenience for petrol/diesel owners will be city Centre bans. But they'll run alongside good public transport systems and park and ride schemes.

MysticMeghan · 13/02/2020 09:42

EVs don't just die without warning

There's this assumption that I am talking about some idiot driver ignoring the dashboard and warning bleeps that's telling him he has 0 miles left.

I was more thinking about a driver with 97 miles left whose car suddenly dies with no reason. Happens sometimes with internal combustion engines too, but usually you have some warning. All it takes is some manufacturing fault. Has happened with iPhones before. Lots of phones dying suddenly without warning and can't be revived even when plugged in. The thing with iPhones is that you can easily carry them over to the plug and plug them in to check. On a motorway with a dead car it's slightly more difficult.

Are you honestly standing up and guaranteeing to me on your grandmother's life that you aren't going to have situations when cars die without warning because of the equivalent of a power cut? Are you telling me that technology is so wonderful that it's categorically impossible for this to happen because you've had your Tesla for 3 years and it's marvellous and there's no moving parts to wear out or go wrong and therefore it CANNOT HAPPEN?

All it takes is a manufacturing fault or some faulty wiring. Product recalls due to electrical faults happen all the time. But this isn't a washing machine we are talking about here. This is a moving bomb with the capacity to do 70-90 miles per hour and contain living people. Commercial aircraft, which are regularly serviced and checked much more frequently than cars have this problem all the time.

United Airlines Flight 266. All altitude instruments disabled by sudden loss of electrical power. 40 people died.

Air Illinois Flight 710. All flight instruments, communication and navigation disabled by sudden loss of electrical power. 10 people died.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced that EVs are somehow immune from suddenly dying. And as previously mentioned, they can't be easily towed away.

OP posts:
PhoneLock · 13/02/2020 10:23

Ladies Day - Opening of Detroit Athletic Club HQ in 1915. Every car parked outside in that picture, apart from one, is electric.

Women didn't seem to have many reservations about electric cars 105 years ago.

Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?
StormTreader · 13/02/2020 10:30

I have a friend who's just bought an EV and does a number of bigger trips. He did a test trip 60 miles out a few weeks ago to check the listed charging points - at least one location they weren't working at all, and another they were working but at a lower than listed rate (5 kw after 4 hours when it should have been 24).

Thats the other thing to bear in mind here, the charging points that HAVE been put in need to be correctly maintained on an on-going basis to properly work.

MysticMeghan · 13/02/2020 11:01

The charging points that HAVE been put in need to be correctly maintained on an on-going basis to properly work

There is also mindless vandalism. No logical or sense involved. If something is in a public place then it's a target. Please don't tell me it's not going to happen?

Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?
OP posts:
DGRossetti · 13/02/2020 11:06

The charging points that HAVE been put in need to be correctly maintained on an on-going basis to properly work

If the ones near me are anything to go by, you also need an army of enforcement officers to patrol the spaces reserved for on-street charging (reminds me that we still don't know if planning regs referenced upthread require houses to be provided with off-street parking to go along with their mandated charging points Hmm). More often than not, when I've been past, the cars there are parked but not electric. Or charging. Meaning "bad luck old chap" if you were hoping to have a quick charge'n'cappuccino

(There are 2 spaces for charging on the high street).

And speaking from bitter personal experience, I would hope the EV charging spaces are better patrolled than the blue badge ones.

MysticMeghan · 13/02/2020 11:51

And speaking from bitter personal experience, I would hope the EV charging spaces are better patrolled than the blue badge ones

And just who is going to pay for all this "patrolling". Boris? Wink

OP posts:
Frazzled2207 · 13/02/2020 13:23

Re. EVssuddenly dying.

Um well, can I be 100% sure it will never ever happen? No. Am I aware of any reported incident of a modern EV dying? No.

Am I aware of reported incidents of ICE cars dying? Yes, quite a few.

EVs have less mechanically to go wrong, that is a fact.
It is very naive to assume that they are more likely to die just because they are electric. The opposite is the case.

PhoneLock · 13/02/2020 13:40

Am I aware of any reported incident of a modern EV dying? No.

It has happened. A quick Google will give several different examples.

e.g...

www.greencarreports.com/news/1116273_some-chevrolet-bolt-evs-get-new-battery-pack-for-sudden-loss-of-power-heres-why

Frazzled2207 · 13/02/2020 14:17

Fair enough. I don't believe those cars are sold in the UK though. Never seen one anyway. I believe ours has some kind of backup battery with some limited if the main one goes. Will educate myself.

Any EV salesman will give an excellent technical spiel on why EVs are so super reliable anyway. Am not going to try and replicate that here.

TalbotAMan · 13/02/2020 17:41

Women didn't seem to have many reservations about electric cars 105 years ago.

At that time the electric starter motor hadn't been invented. The only way to start a car was with a hand crank, and most women weren't strong enough (and possibly those wealthy enough to afford a car would have regarded cranking as unladylike). Women preferred electric cars as they simply needed to be switched on.

Once starter motors came along, petrol technology developed quicker and better than battery technology. Battery cars are viable now because of the Lithium-Ion battery which was devised in the 70s and 80s but only became commercially available in the 90s.

mencken · 13/02/2020 17:56

I've had a petrol car conk out with almost no warning - alternator failure and brake pipe failure. You get enough time to get off the road although very glad I wasn't on a smart motorway.

hopefully an EV would do similar, although if they can't be towed with any wheels on the ground that is seriously shit design and someone needs a good slap. Many breakdown trucks are now flatbed, but I've had one where the towing gear unfurled James-Bond-style from the back of a transit. (Awesome!) That does need two wheels on the ground.

BTW I have now scrapped that car!

MysticMeghan · 13/02/2020 18:58

Didn’t take long for the electric car memes to put in an appearance Grin

Anyone else think the Govt might be inclined to force the issue by hiking duty on fuel so we’re all paying £3 a litre?

Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?
OP posts:
TalbotAMan · 13/02/2020 20:02

Didn’t take long for the electric car memes to put in an appearance

True.

With thanks to Robert Llewellyn for pointing it out, what these never seem to appreciate is that most cobalt mined is used in oil refining, where it is used as a catalyst as part of the sulphur removal process, and is eventually lost. Such cobalt as is used in batteries is recyclable. So those driving petrol and diesel cars should have far more on their conscience.

MysticMeghan · 13/02/2020 22:29

The indoctrination has begun. Whilst cooking dinner tonight 3, yes THREE radio adverts for electric cars. My fault for listening to commercial radio I suppose.

It's not electric cars I object to per se. It's the fact that I feel my choice to do this in my own time and at my own pace is rapidly being taken out of my hands.

I said above that the I feel the government will begin to fore the issue in a few years by hiking up petrol and diesel prices. So those of you who say, "Don't worry, you'll be free to drive whatever you want for a good few years yet, it's only NEW petrol cars they;re banning in 2035 (or 2032 as they now want it)" forget to mention that again, this is only going to be an option for those who can afford it.

If you can't afford an electric vehicle (and let's face it, these subsidies are pointless if you're on minimum wage as you'll never be able to afford the finance anyhow) and you can't drive your old banger because you can't afford to pay £4 a litre for petrol and public transport in your area consists of one bus a week then you are screwed, seriously screwed.

I sat down and carefully read all the posts from those who think that electric cars are the next best thing since sliced bread. And I'm glad you're happy and I'm glad that there is a second hand car market out there and I'm glad for those of you who were able to pick one up for £5,000. But I personally don't have a driveway, don't have £5,000 and my existing car is worth about £300 and so useless as a trade-in. So please try and get it into your heads that in my world, it is rather pointless to go out and save the planet if you are stuck staring at the same 4 walls because you live in the middle of nowhere and you can no longer afford to travel to work, or get to the doctor or dentist or see your friends because the same government who want you to buy an electric car took away the trains and the buses you used to use to get around before you could even drive and now there is nothing. NOTHING.

OP posts:
Frazzled2207 · 14/02/2020 09:15

Here is a really good article that dispels the major myths about EVs

www.nationalgrid.com/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

DGRossetti · 14/02/2020 09:29

I just think that in the same way younger generations are coming to terms with the fact they'll probably never own a house, all generations need to come to terms that owning and running your own car - whatever fuel it uses - will become rarer and rarer. Along with foreign travel.

Frazzled2207 · 14/02/2020 09:44

@DGRossetti yes absolutely.
Nobody likes the idea or it but it doesn't mean it's not true

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