Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Electric Cars - Am I The Only One Having Reservations?

215 replies

MysticMeghan · 05/02/2020 10:27

The news is full of stories about electric cars, how marvellous they are for the environment and how wonderful it's going to be when we all have them. But as someone of modest means, I can't help wondering if this is going to be something that is embraced by the wealthy and those of us who can't afford to shell out £30,000 for a new car are going to be left behind.

I know there is car leasing, but you have to be able to be loan worthy to qualify for that. If you are on UC or working a part time minimum wage and you NEED a car to get to work because you live in a rural area or work unsocial hours, what are you going to do? There's not going to be much of a market in 2nd hand electric vehicles, so buying an old banger for £500 (or cheaper) to get around isn't going to be an option anymore.

The other thing that occurred to me was charging. I live in a street of terraced houses where we fight to park outside our own house because there are no driveways. We all park on the same side of the street to let fire engines and buses get by. Even with occasional charging, there are still going to be electric cables trailing across pavements. What about people across the road? How do they charge from home? Trail their cable across the road? What about blind people or wheelchair users trying to get along pavements? The estate is just streets and streets of tightly packed houses built in the 1950s. There is simply nowhere to install public charging points even if we wanted to.

At my work, we have 250 spaces for about 500 staff. People who arrive late have to park on the street. We currently have about 8 electric charging points for which there is fierce competition and already loads of problems getting people to move mid morning so that others can get in and charge because there is simply nowhere for people who move their vehicles to actually go. I have no doubt our employer would pay to convert the entire car park, but it needs to be at least double to size to allow everyone to charge. We are on an industrial estate with lots of parking restrictions. I realise that the simple answer to this is public transport, but for me to get to work by public transport in time for a 6am start simply isn't going to happen because the buses and trains for those distances don't exist at that hour of the morning. I work in Edinburgh but live in a different region (county) because I just can't afford Edinburgh house prices.

DH works in a rural area where there is ONE public charging point shared between about 17 villages. He has to commute further than the the range of a current electric vehicle and he uses tools and is an only able to work during daylight hours, so parking miles away and walking a cement mixer up the street just isn't practical. Assuming technology could improve to the extent that the range of vehicles could be increased and he could find on street charging near to where he is working, there's still going to be large sections of the day when he is likely to be hanging around waiting to charge a vehicle where he isn't actually earning.

The government are actually REMOVING the subsidy for purchasing electric vehicles in March so there doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on. And whilst I'm sure that electric vehicles are going to be a real boon in cities, I can't help thinking that in rural areas, where people NEED cars and there isn't even a proper mobile phone network or even mains gas in some places, people are really going to struggle. Where DH works the area earns most of its revenue from tourism, with people driving considerable distances but then just mainly staying for the day. Are they REALLY going to put in 40/50 charging points in a remote fishing village? Or will people have to beg the use of someone's private supply so they can drive home?

I recently read an article where an electric car user admitted that driving to visit his in-laws in Norfolk was quite inconvenient because he had to stop and charge about 5 times (and no doubt stay overnight somewhere as well). But he said as he only does that once a year he can live with it. What if you have to drive considerable distances every day or every week to look after sick relatives? There is this assumption that everyone lives identical lives with at most a 15 mile commute. That nobody really drives long distances very often. That's not my reality at all.

I know by the time all this happens, cars will have a better range and need less charging, but whereas you can easily integrate electric cars into a fairly modern country like Norway, this is Britain with our creaking Victorian and post war infrastructure and short of turning the country into one huge car park how is this going to work? Even in Norway they had problems. Affluent city dwellers with great public transport links embraced the changes. The rural poor have had to radically re-think their lifestyles, with less opportunity to travel, work and socialise they are more or less stuck in areas with very few facilities.

Please tell me there is someone else out there who thinks this 2035 ban is just a load of swank and the government are going to have to massively back track as the deadline gets closer?

PS If you are a Hybrid user I bet you are mad already!

OP posts:
okiedokieme · 07/02/2020 17:17

I share your concerns. I don't see how it can be implemented on this timescale. I would love one but I need a 250 mile range for an affordable price (£20k max) to be an option.

okiedokieme · 07/02/2020 17:19

Ps I have a drive and garage but still worry about charging away from home

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 07/02/2020 17:29

I suspect that as batteries get smaller and more efficient, you will simply swap out an empty battery for a fully charged one rather than plugging in the entire car. So you wouldn't need to have a particular location to park, and then move once charged, just park and bring the battery to sit under your desk to charge.

Plus they won't need to be charged as frequently, the next car that I'm thinking of buying will go 450 km on a full charge, I do 9,000 km a year which is only 25 km a day on average, plugging it in overnight a few times a week should be enough, no need for a daytime charge.

They might also be able to trickle charge in future, for instance with solar panels on the roof. I doubt a car would ever be fully solar charged in the near future but it could extend the range.

prh47bridge · 07/02/2020 17:37

I would love one but I need a 250 mile range for an affordable price (£20k max) to be an option

You won't have long to wait. I would expect that you'll be able to buy a brand new electric car with that kind of range at that kind of price within the next 2-3 years given the way prices and ranges are going.

trappedsincesundaymorn · 07/02/2020 17:38

Where I live there are 16 houses and 8 flats. In the car park there are 30 cars. It would be impossible for each to be charged overnight and there are no charge points at all for 10 miles (nearest town). It is simply impossible for all of us to have electric cars. We have 4 buses a day and no local employers (apart from the small village shop and 1 pub). The only solution for those of us not living in towns and cities would be hybrids but they are also on the hitlist for 2035. Unless thought is given to how those of us in rural areas are expected to cope then many will be forced out or isolated imo.

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 07/02/2020 17:48

Actually, far from there not being cheap second-hand electric cars to be had, I'm worried that my potential new car won't hold its value at all because 5 years from now it will seem to have very poor efficiency/range compared to cars that are a year or two younger.

DrunkenUnicorn · 07/02/2020 17:48

I have recently bought an electric car, 4 years old and 10k from a main dealer. Yes it was more expensive than an ICE car but having looked at the numbers I’ll be saving around £1500 a year in diesel. I do a lot of miles, but lots of localish journeys of 5-30 miles then stopping. My car has one of the smallest batteries of only 24 whereas the new models on the market are 62. The winter range on my car is about 65-70 miles (more in summer as the batteries find it harder work in cold temps plus heating, lights etc).

You can pick up an older car now for around 5k. Prices are continuing to drop.

My understanding from those in the know is that when the batteries get old and naturally start to lose efficiency they are recycled to be used for energy storage.

I’ve also read somewhere that Tesla are on the cusp of breaking the 400miles to a full charge barrier.

With regard to charging there are various types of charger speeds, ‘rapids’ for example charge my car in approximately 30min, whereas the ‘fast’ chargers do it in 4 hours, ‘slow’ in 8, and a ‘granny cable’ to a household 3 pin plug is 12. I think a lot of the usability will depend on the infrastructure being well thought out- for example ensuring rapid chargers at service stations etc where people are only staying briefly for a cup of tea/break before driving on, and the ‘fast’ chargers at ‘destinations’ like shopping centers/work places where people park up for several hours. I think the ‘slow’ chargers will be phased out, I understand most of the new cars being produced all accept 7kw charging whereas some older vehicles can only take 3.3 and so even plugged into a 7 charger they take an age. But it needs to be thought through a little better- so for example one local supermarket has a couple of 3.3 chargers so realistically they’re not adding much range for 30-60 min shopping (I think it’s about 15miles added on a Nissan Leaf in an hour on a 3.3charger).

Parky04 · 07/02/2020 17:51

I will buy a new petrol car in 2034 and hopefully that will last me until I die!

VivaLeBeaver · 07/02/2020 22:51

@DGRossetti. Not sure what the Hmm face was for?

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-do-hydrogen-powered-cars-have-future

DGRossetti · 08/02/2020 12:35

DGRossetti. Not sure what the hmm face was for?

I'll be honest and say that if I want up to the date information on the engineering and science challenges facing hydrogen as a fuel, my goto source is not an auto industry puff mag.

Peer reviewed science would be my starting point.

Currently, the best way to use hydrogen as a fuel is to whack some carbon and oxygen molecules onto it, making it easy to store and transport as a liquid or solid.

VivaLeBeaver · 08/02/2020 12:47

Great, nice to hear your very valid point. Thank you.

mencken · 08/02/2020 16:05

we are on the edge of electricity supply so if this is going to work, we'd better get building low carbon power stations. That means nuclear, greenies.

I will also be saving for a new petrol car in 2034 if I am still driving then, and that should see me out.

as usual, arts graduate policy making taking us down a dead end. We need better public transport (that doesn't mean getting fat cats from London to Birmingham 20 mins faster, it means public transport for all), efficient car share that doesn't just work in cities, different working practices, a ban on cars within half a mile of schools except for disabled parents or children, stuff like that.

cdtaylornats · 10/02/2020 00:06

My sister asked an interesting question

Given that every year or so people get blocked in a long queue on motorways because of accidents, if it is cold people run the engine to stay warm. If they run out of fuel before the problem clears they simply get a top up and proceed to the nearest petrol station. How do you do that with electric cars? Even if you can get a top up charge, how many charging points will be available at the next service station?

VivaLeBeaver · 10/02/2020 06:54

I’m not 100% sure but I think the AA (if you’re a member) will already sort people out who have run out of charge. So I assume tow them to a charging point?

In the future of use becomes more widespread there will have to be hundreds of charging points at service stations and possibly some sort of battery swap scheme.

DGRossetti · 10/02/2020 10:24

Given that every year or so people get blocked in a long queue on motorways because of accidents,

I refer you to the second arm of electric cars - autonomy. You could have a grid of roads which only allows autonomous cars (and therefore no accidents).

In the future of use becomes more widespread there will have to be hundreds of charging points at service stations and possibly some sort of battery swap scheme

Which puts the kibosh on hydrogen power then. We haven't started the real infrastructure work needed for electric cars, let alone for electric and (as yet nowhere near ready) hydrogen cars. Which makes HS2 look like an emergency project.

zelbazinnamon · 10/02/2020 10:30

Isn’t the reality that we are all going to drive less? Hopefully with increased public transport, but possibly just not getting around as much as we do today...

BeyondMyWits · 10/02/2020 10:45

Owning a car is already expensive. We own one for DH travel to and from work and to his mum who lives 40 miles away. The rest of the time I get bus or taxi - and can afford to do that by not owning another car. I think there will gradually be less car ownership, more leasing and moving to more of the uber type autonomous car - click online, it turns up, sort of transport.

If a network of charging stations and home charge points is necessary why not look at the true alternative where no one owns any of it, the car corporations run warehouses where cars toodle off to charge when not in use.

DGRossetti · 10/02/2020 10:53

Isn’t the reality that we are all going to drive less?

If you want to tackle climate change (not everyone does) we're all going to travel a lot less Hmm

zelbazinnamon · 10/02/2020 11:01

Indeed. I think our lifestyles will be extremely different - travel, consumption of goods, all sorts...

Motacilla · 10/02/2020 11:10

"I will buy a new petrol car in 2034 and hopefully that will last me until I die!"

Unless lots of people do the same to keep up the demand you may find petrol stations becoming significantly fewer and further between.

LoopyLu2019 · 10/02/2020 11:10
  1. Hydrogen will not take off for personal cars. You only get 40% efficiency in hydrogen production. Even if that improves, you will still have huge safety issues over transportation of fuel from production plant to delivery location. In small quantities, risk is fairly low, in high quantities it is dangerous. There may be other uses for hydrogen transport but it is highly unlikely to be personal cars.
  2. Personal car ownership as we know them will decrease. Car shares will be on the rise. Especially with self driving technology. It will just be another change we will adapt to.
  3. Charging, rapid charging means that it takes 15 minutes to get 80% charge for cars like tesla. It will most likely be the case, if you can't charge at home, then you go some where to rapid charge.
DGRossetti · 10/02/2020 11:22

2. Personal car ownership as we know them will decrease. Car shares will be on the rise. Especially with self driving technology. It will just be another change we will adapt to.
3. Charging, rapid charging means that it takes 15 minutes to get 80% charge for cars like tesla. It will most likely be the case, if you can't charge at home, then you go some where to rapid charge.

If you remove the quaint notion of personal ownership, all the charging problems immediately disappear. It's why there's a certain inevitability about it. People need to pull their heads out of the 20th century and realise that it will be bookended by the 19th and 21st centuries where the idea of owning your own horse car is something for the very wealthy[1]. The housing market is already headed that way, so it's just a matter of time before other areas catch up. And even if people don't want that, the creeping menace of climate change isn't going to give them much choice.

[1] A classic example of how change happens is Henry Fords comment that if he'd listened to the public, he would have been making faster horses.

GingerBeverage · 10/02/2020 11:32

Who would have thought even 5 years ago we'd be using electric cigarettes or scooters so much? The tech has evolved extremely fast, a lot of it in China (so not a western conspiracy but plain old capitalism).

In fact China is the biggest e-car market in the world, and they are far cheaper there, starting around £11k.

www.egear.asia/cheapest-electric-cars-china/

The real question for me is how internal combustion engine makers/big oil have managed to quash alternative innovation for over 100 years. But then, they did manage to make jay-walking illegal...

usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/11/where-jaywalking-is-not-a-crime/

megletthesecond · 10/02/2020 11:37

I think there's going to be a huge gulf between the haves, who have a driveway to charge their car on and the have-nots who have street or estate parking, and no personal charge point.
Better public transport would help but I doubt they'll invest in that.

TheHagOnTheHill · 10/02/2020 11:41

Where all this electricity is going to come from if you also throw in the phasing out of gas connected to new properties?
I would also like to know how long does a battery last and how much does it cost to replace at the moment?
Travelling less but with no public transport will isolate many.A lot of new houses are being built in our small town.There are 3buses a day to the nearest city(25 miles),1 bus to the nearest 6 form college,I shopping bus a week to a larger town.Thats it,the primary and secondary schools are full.So this community is completely reliant on cars but no government planning to change this.

Swipe left for the next trending thread