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Why the Madeleine critics make me mad

336 replies

mumofteens · 18/08/2007 16:30

It makes me mad to still be hearing pompous, judgemental, illogical people criticising the parents of Madeleine about their decision to eat nearby while the children were in the room, and even going so far as to say that social services should be involved.

Here's why. If you have ever been to a Mark Warner resort you will know that there is (or used to be) a baby sitting service available whereby a nanny walks around the floors of the hotel while you dine in the restaurant somewhere else in the hotel. We have used this ourselves. Now, if someone was determined to abduct a child, they could walk into the hotel and take a child from the unlocked room while the nanny is walking on other floors, or is inside a room comforting a crying child. Like most hotels, people come and go without reception turning a hair. Security is usually incredibly lax in hotels and no-one knows who is staying there, who has come in just for a meal or drink and who is a friend of guests. Equally, someone could let themselves in/out of a downstairs window or back entrance if they did not want to walk past reception.

Are the critics suggesting that all the parents who have used such services should have their children taken away by social services?

Ditto with the baby listening services that people use in hotels when reception listen in for crying babies. A person of criminal intent could let themselves into the room, (assuming it had been left unlocked due to a fear of fire) and abduct a child.

You could be asleep in you house and someone could break in and take a baby/child while you were asleep. You could be sitting in the garden while you child was asleep in the house and the same thing could happen. Equally, in my experience, schools and hospitals are often extraordinarily lax about security with people coming and going. One of my daughters had to spend quite a bit of time in hospital and the staff were incredibly laissez-faire about security with hoards of people traipsing in and out of the ward day and night. Someone could easily have taken my child while I nipped off to the loo.

You could watch your child 24 hours a day and something bad could happen - a wierdo could grab them and hurt them etc. Someone was attacked in the park by a wierdo recently - if that had been a child, would the parents have been deemed neligent for allowing their children to walk (with them) in the park?

The point is - if someone is determined to snatch a baby/child, or do something horrible they will find a way to do it.

In terms of risk assessment, the most dangerous place for your child to be is near the road. Yet we all happily put our children in cars every day. Every single week children are killed in cars on the roads, driven by law-abiding, caring parents.

There is also a danger associated with babysitters. We used one for a stage who came highly recommended (she was a nanny at the creche at the prestigious Harbour Club in Chelsea). In fact, she was a criminal with a huge history of stealing. Another friend used one who again came with glowing references but who was in fact a serious drug-addict. I would rather have my children on their own in the house than locked up in a house with a drug addict/criminal.

There is also a danger of putting a child in a creche. One of mine was once badly attacked by another child and could have lost her eye. This would not have happened if she had not been in the creche.

See what I mean? There are risks associated with every single thing we do/don't do. In the context of the big bad world, the possibility of accidents and the reality that not all people looking after children are necessarily very responsible (and that other children can cause accidents), having the children sleeping nearby on their own might have seemed like the lesser of a number of evils.

Having said all that, I do not want to scare people. I do not think that there are bogeymen around every corner. We give our children quite a bit of freedom and do not worry. The main thing I worry about is road accidents as statistically this is by far the most dangerous place to be.

OP posts:
UCM · 19/08/2007 17:00

I find it a bit disturbing that some people condemn the discussion of this whole thing on here. Sure if people want to discuss it, they can freely. Whether they are right or wrong. Live & let live and all that.

DemobCod · 19/08/2007 17:00

its just dull

UCM · 19/08/2007 17:03

So are jeans, but I allow you to talk about em.

divastrop · 19/08/2007 17:40

ariel photo of resort

maybe luckylady's friend is mr.tickle?

i worked in butlins 10 years ago and the security was pretty tight(high barbed wire fences,one way in an out[unless you had a boat])but unauthorised people[drug dealers mostly]could get in pretty easily by slipping the security guards a tenner or hiding in the boot of a car.

3andnomore · 19/08/2007 18:35

Ok then....people liek teh op, that apparently think it's perfectly o.k. to do what teh McCanns did and think it's wrong of others to judge this and feel that theey were wrong, frighten me....because it means that children will be left alone when the parents want to eat out on their own, in the name of Holiday....
A friend of mine, who is a single mum, and I talked about this when she came to visit....and we both agreed that say, it was someone like herself, i.e. a single mum on benefits, that took her daughter abroad and then left her in the Room alone so she could have some time wihtout the girl, would have not been treated so kindly , it would have been seen as what it would be...neglectful parenting....and rightly so, imo...however, it bugs the hell out of me that there are , in so many people's mind, such doublestandards to be applied....

Ceebee74 · 19/08/2007 18:59

I also vowed I would not post on this subject as I have strong opinions on it which are probably best kept to myself.

3andnomore - that is exactly what I said when it first happened all those months ago - that if it had been someone from a working-class background who had done the same thing, they would have been severely slated/hounded by the press from day one - it is just so hypocritical.

I am afraid that to me, a family holiday is just that - one where you spend as a family.

KerryMumbledore · 19/08/2007 20:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noddyholder · 19/08/2007 20:32

if people didn't judge debate and discuss no laws wouldever be passed

expatinscotland · 19/08/2007 20:34

It's deja vu all over again!

You're entitled to your opinion, OP, as anyone on this site is.

And mine is this: sitting in your garden whilst your children are asleep is not the same as leaving 3 toddlers alone in an unlocked ground floor apartment right on the road in a foreign country whilst you eat in a restaurant that's got a swimming pool between you and the apartment.

Anyone who thinks it is is living in a parallel universe I wouldn't even want to visit with my kids, much less live in.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 20:34

Actually when I saw the picture, it doesn't look as bad as it looked on the news. I can't see any big wall obscuring the view, and the swimming pool is clearly visible from the restaurant, so anyone falling into it would be noticed. Also they haven't needed to cross a road to get to the restaurant, which is a big psychological barrier. I had the impression that there was a road between the restaurant and the apartment, but it doesn't look like there is.

Although obviously it's difficult to tell from an aeriel photo.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2007 20:35

I nominate noddyholder's last post for quote of the week.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2007 20:36

'I can't see any big wall obscuring the view, and the swimming pool is clearly visible from the restaurant, so anyone falling into it would be noticed.'

When I was three-years-old, me and another boy the same age went into a swimming pool loaded with people on a sunny summer day.

No one but the lifeguard noticed - we were already floating in the water by then.

Idreamofdaleks · 19/08/2007 20:42

V bizarre & unusual behaviour to leave your kids alone in a hotel room imo, no getting away from it

big time sympathy to them for what happened

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 20:45

Yes I'm not arguing that it's a good idea to let kids jump into a swimming pool unsupervised expat.

Just that having seen the layout, I find it slightly more understandable how people can be lulled into a false sense of security.

Would still feel it was slightly too far to be comfortable for me tbh, but I can imagine that that kind of resort works hard to break down those normal psychological barriers.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2007 20:47

I didn't jump in.

What I'm saying is that the pool would have been my first thought for not leaving them alone.

One of my mum's best friend's sons drowned when he was 6. They were all inside for a birthday party at a country club and he managed to get in the pool. He was dead by the time he was found.

Not that I'd have even considered leaving three toddlers in an unlocked ground floor apartment in a foreign country for a second.

I honestly don't see how anyone as educated and professional as they are could have come to the logical conclusion that that was a good idea.

Again, I do feel sorry for them for their loss.

KerryMumbledore · 19/08/2007 20:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

southeastastra · 19/08/2007 20:51

for gawds sake. hindsight is a great thing

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 20:52

"I honestly don't see how anyone as educated and professional as they are could have come to the logical conclusion that that was a good idea"

I think that's what Mark Warner specialise in. Making people think it's a good idea. The holiday atmosphere helps that along.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2007 20:53

Yes, the rearview mirror is 20/20, but you're supposed to stop in look in it every now and again whilst you're driving.

KerryMumbledore · 19/08/2007 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

southeastastra · 19/08/2007 20:59

i wouldn't either, but they did. what is the point of going over it again and again

divastrop · 19/08/2007 21:02

eh?what did i say?i just posted the photo as people were discussing it,and remarked that one would have to be mr.tickle to tough the appt. from the restaurant.

my butlins comments were to the poster who asked if MW was like butlins.

the site i got that photo from has other pictures of different views of the resort that are more detailed.

apart from that i dont really have an opinion on this as i have never been to a MW resort,although i know i wouldnt go to the bar across the road from my house(i would be able to see my front door if i sat by the window)and leave my children.when ive been on holiday with my children i have taken them to the cabaret venues etc and left when they got tired.but thats just me.

turquoisenights · 19/08/2007 21:45

what i still dont get is: there is a road nearby and anybody can enter the club so easily, no security controls etc. so how can it be secure there?
there are many gates to enter the club, i dont see any proper fences around, i dont see security gates on most of them?
so where is the security there?

mumofteens · 19/08/2007 22:09

Gosh so many people are SO judgemental. Those who adopt a "holier than thou" attitude to child-rearing make me depressed. I am really glad we adopted a laissez-faire attitude to bringing up our kids - they are great and not overly neurotic or judgemental about other people and the decisions they make. I also think they have a reasonable grasp of risk-assessment - ie roads and cars can be really dangerous, so can excessive amounts of alchol etc. They are really happy to be at home on their own and not worried at all (they are now well in their mid- teens before the nanny state lovers start getting self-righteous and calling the s.s.....) We know all our neighbours and they will be there to help if there are any problems. Anyway, enough said.

OP posts:
emkana · 19/08/2007 22:12

Well good for you then.

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