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Why the Madeleine critics make me mad

336 replies

mumofteens · 18/08/2007 16:30

It makes me mad to still be hearing pompous, judgemental, illogical people criticising the parents of Madeleine about their decision to eat nearby while the children were in the room, and even going so far as to say that social services should be involved.

Here's why. If you have ever been to a Mark Warner resort you will know that there is (or used to be) a baby sitting service available whereby a nanny walks around the floors of the hotel while you dine in the restaurant somewhere else in the hotel. We have used this ourselves. Now, if someone was determined to abduct a child, they could walk into the hotel and take a child from the unlocked room while the nanny is walking on other floors, or is inside a room comforting a crying child. Like most hotels, people come and go without reception turning a hair. Security is usually incredibly lax in hotels and no-one knows who is staying there, who has come in just for a meal or drink and who is a friend of guests. Equally, someone could let themselves in/out of a downstairs window or back entrance if they did not want to walk past reception.

Are the critics suggesting that all the parents who have used such services should have their children taken away by social services?

Ditto with the baby listening services that people use in hotels when reception listen in for crying babies. A person of criminal intent could let themselves into the room, (assuming it had been left unlocked due to a fear of fire) and abduct a child.

You could be asleep in you house and someone could break in and take a baby/child while you were asleep. You could be sitting in the garden while you child was asleep in the house and the same thing could happen. Equally, in my experience, schools and hospitals are often extraordinarily lax about security with people coming and going. One of my daughters had to spend quite a bit of time in hospital and the staff were incredibly laissez-faire about security with hoards of people traipsing in and out of the ward day and night. Someone could easily have taken my child while I nipped off to the loo.

You could watch your child 24 hours a day and something bad could happen - a wierdo could grab them and hurt them etc. Someone was attacked in the park by a wierdo recently - if that had been a child, would the parents have been deemed neligent for allowing their children to walk (with them) in the park?

The point is - if someone is determined to snatch a baby/child, or do something horrible they will find a way to do it.

In terms of risk assessment, the most dangerous place for your child to be is near the road. Yet we all happily put our children in cars every day. Every single week children are killed in cars on the roads, driven by law-abiding, caring parents.

There is also a danger associated with babysitters. We used one for a stage who came highly recommended (she was a nanny at the creche at the prestigious Harbour Club in Chelsea). In fact, she was a criminal with a huge history of stealing. Another friend used one who again came with glowing references but who was in fact a serious drug-addict. I would rather have my children on their own in the house than locked up in a house with a drug addict/criminal.

There is also a danger of putting a child in a creche. One of mine was once badly attacked by another child and could have lost her eye. This would not have happened if she had not been in the creche.

See what I mean? There are risks associated with every single thing we do/don't do. In the context of the big bad world, the possibility of accidents and the reality that not all people looking after children are necessarily very responsible (and that other children can cause accidents), having the children sleeping nearby on their own might have seemed like the lesser of a number of evils.

Having said all that, I do not want to scare people. I do not think that there are bogeymen around every corner. We give our children quite a bit of freedom and do not worry. The main thing I worry about is road accidents as statistically this is by far the most dangerous place to be.

OP posts:
ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:18

Bubble I am in total agreement with you. When the first news reports came out it was just that she was taken when she was alone, then other things filtered through - the unlocked door etc, not to mention the pool. I wont even let DD go into my MIL's garden without supervision (she's nearly 2) because they have 2 ponds.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:19

No, you are far more likely to be a casualty of a road accident if you are in a car, than if you are a pedestrian.

Bubble I'm not comparing the two. I'm making the point that we are very arbitrary about what we decide is a socially acceptable risk, and what isn't.

In thirty years time, what with global warming, childhood obesity etc., it may become a matter of social opprobrium to take children in a car unless strictly necessary.

We may feel very irritated with our DIL's who express horror that we put our children at risk in the way we do.
Watch this space!

turquoisenights · 19/08/2007 15:21

when i read the op, what i think is the lack of security in the club.
you said there are child minders checking the children asleep, the doors of rooms unlocked, and nobody knows who is around, they can be either guests, or friends, nobody knows anyone. this is a lack of security. there should be security guards around checking who is around, they must not let anybody in who doesnt stay there. there is a road very nearby, so there should be security in short intervals walking around or staying at gates of club.

ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:22

But using a car, public transport, crossing the road, etc are all sorts of "risks" which you can probably not avoid during the day, short of living in a protective, sun proof bubble, there are risks in daily life.

Leaving three young children alone is one you can avoid.

KerryMumbledore · 19/08/2007 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:25

Thirty years ago Elf, people said that leaving kids alone was a risk you couldn't avoid.

We now think they were talking bollocks.

In thirty years time, they may tell us that we are talking bollocks.

ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:30

FWIW people using cars is not why people are fat.
People are fat because they eat too much and do not exercise.
I drive to see my parents (15 miles away) and I often drive to work to claw back an extra hour with my daughter after work.
So yes, my daughter goes in the car, but we also take a half hour walk each night, we go swimming once a week, we play on the back garden in the good weather, we go the park at the weekend. So my choice to drive a car is not going to make her fat.

I am 26 and my parents NEVER left me alone so I dont know about the arguement of "30 years ago they said..."

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:35

Of course people aren't fat just because of the overuse of cars.

It's just one of the factors.

OK 40 years ago then. The point is, risks that were once acceptable, (like leaving a couple of younger kids in the care of an 11 year old) aren't now. Risks that were once unacceptable (like leaving your child unsupervised in front of the TV for 2 hours - there was real anxiety about that in the fifties) now are.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:37

I used to babysit for toddlers when I was 13. I think now, that that would probably be unacceptable. (The mother was a nurse, so responsible, respectable person, not yobbo.)

I certainly wouldn't leave a 13 year old in charge of my children. And yet i don't think 13 year olds have changed that much, have they? Don't know.

ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:37

So if the current trend is that leaving children is NOT acceptable, why does there seem to be a backlash for people who say the McCann's should not have left their children?

ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:38

I think 13 year olds have changed TBH. Generations have changed - I was a very responsible 13 year old, but I know many 13 year olds now who are not.

noddyholder · 19/08/2007 15:38

A 13 yr old is better than no one

scienceteacher · 19/08/2007 15:44

I have to say that the McCann's did exercise poor judgment, especially in light of today's middle class values.

I don't know anyone that would leave young children in an unlocked room, with all the other risks involved, especially when there were other options available to them. This was not their only choice - they could have used the service, taken the children with them in buggies, or had one of their party babysit for everyone. Leaving the children as they did was probably the least safe of all their options.

I don't really want to criticise their values (as opposed to their judgment), but it does seem weird to have their kids in a creche until 6.30pm and then leave them in the evening. Also, when multiple families go on holiday together, usually one of the big advantages is that you can share the babysitting.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:45

Because much of the tone has been lacking in compassion.

Just because one might question their wisdom, doesn't make that incompatible with compassion for them. And seeing an internet mob put them in the virtual stocks for their own entertainment, is revolting.

That's why, I think.

LittleBellatrixLeBoot · 19/08/2007 15:48

tbh mark warner sounds like a really odd place.

I'd hesitate to make any hard and fast judgements though, because I've never been there and don't know what kind of atmosphere it engenders to make it seem "normal" to leave kids in that way. It obviously does though, as the OP makes clear.

Aimsmum · 19/08/2007 15:50

Message withdrawn

ELF1981 · 19/08/2007 15:55

There is no point me arguing, if you disagree from their choice you end up being called a hypocrite (oooh, do you not take risks ELF?) or you get called nasty.

luckylady74 · 19/08/2007 16:08

i've left my ds1 in a hotel room - admittedly i was in the restaurant downstairs with my baby listener plugged in next to me and his door was locked - i'd never considered fire

my friend has just been to the resort on a pre booked holiday and said it has changed her mind - standing in the restaurant she said you could practically touch their apartment - and she would have considered doing the same herself

i've never posted on one of these threads, but i've been thinking very loudly about them

chikenmother · 19/08/2007 16:16

Noddyholder I agree with you. I think McCann´s were negligent leaving 3 small children alone for no valuable reason. Parents must be responsable. If a baby cries, vomit, has fever, awakes in the dark, falls from bed, has a pain or a nightmare there is nobody there to confort her. The risks are too high to assume them. Parents must think about children FIRST, and if it means not going to dinner out so be it- they sould not go - or they shoud go one at a time.

No one expects a monster to snatch your daughter away, but the risks are not aonly monsters like that. I personally have 3 children and never let them alone like that, it is too much risky and I would not be able to enjoy any dinner or so far away from them. But McCann already know that now. No one desereves such a pain and neither do them I think. But this case must be an example for those who leave children alone like that. It shold not happen.

Gobbledigook · 19/08/2007 16:16

When I saw an aerial shot of the complex that indicated where the restaurant was and where the apt was, you could most definitey NOT touch the apt - you couldn't even see it as it was on the other side of the building to the apts that overlooked the pool/restaurant.

Unless that photo was inaccurate I guess.

luckylady74 · 19/08/2007 16:16

i also sat on the terrace of a ground floor apartment at night whilst ds1 was asleep in the bedroom with the living room between us -
it never occured to me that someone could prise open the shutters and snatch him.
i think judging their decisions is reasonable if you wouldn't do it yourself, but also unkind.

Aimsmum · 19/08/2007 16:41

Message withdrawn

Theclosetpagan · 19/08/2007 16:49

parp

DemobCod · 19/08/2007 16:51

is mark wrner like butlins?

3andnomore · 19/08/2007 16:57

fgs

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