Terrorists losing British Citizenship

[hellenbackagen]

Why is this news? Stripping terrorists of citizenship?

Surely the day a person decides they are happy to kill or maim their citizens in the name of terrorism they have lost their right to stake a claim to that citizenship?

This isn't a loss of their human rights. They forgo that when they choose to rob others of their human rights surely?

Fuck off and be a citizen of the people you support.

My post may not have made much sense, but was meant to be in context re the it's 'societies, everyone else's' fault re Begun and Letts because they were failed,... So can that be an excuse for every crime now? 'I feel failed so I'm blameless, blame the world for not getting me, whatever l've done'?!

my government? Oh if only I had the power.!

It's not about compassion and sympathy for me. And I've lived with terrorism for decades. First the IRA then the various psychos living in Europe, bomb threats every week, lived in London through 7/7. Plus other events I won't bore you with. And I've worked in the criminal justice system. I was working with murderers at 18.

Any more ad hominem nonsense to throw at people who don't agree with you?

I believe fighting terrorism involves being better than they are. Which means seeking justice not revenge, respecting human rights of all (unlike them), not torturing or killing (unlike them) even when provoked. You don't seem to be able to understand that concept.

Baying for blood and grabbing pitchforks is unfortunately the level of debate right now. Which addresses nothing. It does produce another generation of disaffected, righteously angry young men though. We all know how productive that is.

I would have let Begum back and the baby had he lived. Not so sure about this Jihadi Jack. Though it’s not very diplomatic lumbering Canada with a terrorist that was radicalised in this country.

I'm sorry but I feel as if its always the 'if you had only been better then this wouldn't have happened' if we had better understanding of why Begun hates the UK and wants the west to die in fire and brimstone, if I'd just been 'nicer' to the violent ED patient (because it was my lack of understanding that led them to punch me) but of course I need to accept this is part of my job, and if l can't then according to a great deal of people l'm not fit to do my job if l don't accept physical and verbal threats and aggression!

So can that be an excuse for every crime now?

'Reason' is not the same as 'excuse'. Just because I'd quite like to know the reasons people offend, and mitigate those reasons, doesn't mean I excuse the behaviour. If someone has capacity to understand consequences, they face the consequences.

That doesn't mean we debase ourselves and think that everything is OK when you're dealing with terrorists. Removing citizenship, rendition and torture, shoot to kill policies, life imprisonment without proper trial, moving people to countries with the death sentence, Abu Ghraib are not all peachy because we are dealing with terrorists.

Because if you don't defend the principles of democracy, one day it's Them and the next it's You. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

But where will they go if UK doesn’t accept them? Do you think keeping these people in Syria is gonna make it a more stable place? Was it Bangladesh that was the other possible nationality for Shamima Begum? Do you think they should pay for her incarceration when she was radicalised in UK? Where do you think she has the best chance of being deradicalised - in a country where her family is or some place she has hardly lived in?

OP would you be just as happy if a country like France for example did the same with joint nationality persons with UK citizenship?
I can see the outraged headlines now,"France dumps terrorists on innocent UK citizens"
We as a country have a situation where some of our citizens have committed atrocities against our own country, we need to own this and manage this in the same way we manage any other criminals.
Some will have extenuating circumstances, some will not but they are our issue to manage.

I know Jack Letts personally.
He deserves to be stripped of his citizenship.
This isn't anything that was instilled in him.
His poor parents.

@joyfullittlehippo
“The fact the Jo Cox shooter was not stripped of his citizenship is because he is NOT a dual national.” (My statement)

“Oh come on, that's obviously not the case. No one ever says "send 'em back where they came from!!!" about white terrorists, but it's always said about Islamic terrorists even if they are solely British citizens.”

(Your response, in which you have changed from “white supremacy terrorists” to “white terrorists”)

Well, if we want to talk race, let’s do that. jihadi Jack is WHITE and oh look, he’s just been stripped of his UK citizenship. There is NO racist attribute to this no matter how hard you are trying to push that narrative. I’m a dual national myself. I am also white. I know that if I commit ANY serious crime against the UK or in the UK that I can vent stripped of my U.K. citizenship. The reason the Jo Cox shooter was NOT stripped IS because he is NOT a dual national and the UK is prohibited from stripping his citizenship under international law.
And, yes when it comes to ISIS fighters captured in Syria..it’s not “send them back” but rather “do not let them come back”. Saying it’s “send them back” is a wilful misrepresentation of affairs.

@joyfullittlehippo“Half the posters here don't actually seem to realise these dual nationals aren't Syrian, but are citizens of other non-Islamic Western countries like Canada and Belgium and Holland. Why should Canada get lumped with someone who was born in the UK, raised in the UK, radicalised in the UK, committed his crimes in Syria, and has never even been or had anything to do with Canada?

So far you're the only poster to actually acknowledge that white terrorists and non-Islamic terrorists exist, though, which is a good start.”

Then why are you focusing on white terrorists? You do know a large number of Islamic terrorists are, in fact, white people? Race does not matter, just the crime and their nationalit(ies).
I think most posters DO realise this and are not thinking Islamic terrorist= BAME and white terrorist= white supremacist. After all, a lot of us lived through the IRA bombings.....

@MrsTerryPratchett
All those things you listed- being against torture, life imprisonment, etc are NOT actually “principles of democracy” but rather political views on crime and punishment versus human rights. Nothing to do with whether a country is a democracy or not.

In addition, your liberty quote is quoted way the fuck out of context. It was never meant to be used to defend releasing terrorists into the general populace.

@joyfullittlehippo
“Literally not one single person has said we should "support" or be compassionate towards terrorists.”

Er, I think if you read upthread you will see a number of people advocating just that. Cherrypavlova wrote a number of posts claiming that Shamima Begum was a groomed and abused child on par with the Rotherham victims and should be given compassion, allowed back to live with her family and given MH treatment to deradicalise her and she shouldn’t stand trial for her crimes because she’s a victim not a terrorist.

@Vasya
There is no human right to multiple citizenships.
Stripping a multiple or dual national of extra citizenships is not a violation of human rights.

All those saying how would we feel if other countries stripped citizenship and dumped terrorists on the U.K.

Yeah, that happens. In fact it IS happening with Shamima Begum. SB was born with Bangladeshi and U.K. citizenship. So we stripped her. But Bangladesh has made the case that because SB was never registered as a citizen, they had no way of knowing she was Bangladeshi and that their policy is also to strip terrorists of citizenship & not allow them back to Bangladesh and the U.K. got an unfair head start on citizenship stripping. So SB’s case is being appealed on those grounds in high court.

@MrsTerryPratchett
Here is the context of your liberty/safety quote from Ben Franklin

The exact quotation, which is from a letter that Franklin is believed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania General Assembly, reads, “those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

“This thread is about whether we should put terrorists on trial and punish them, or try to fob them off onto unrelated countries. ”

No, this thread is not about that. You can strip a terrorist of their U.K. citizenship AND put them on trial in the U.K.. You don’t need to be a U.K. citizen to be put on trial and imprisoned.

We put noncitizens on trial every day, in fact 12% of our prison population right now are not U.K. citizens.

This thread is about whether their punishment should include being stripped of the citizenship.

I'm Irish descent. I don't entirely disagree with the premise for actual convicted ones but generally this turns into backlashes against entire communities where we can hardly breathe with fear. It's wrong.

Why should people of dual citizenship be treated differently from people of single citizenship. Why not allow them to keep citizenship and put lifelong restrictions on their travel?

He’s probably going to be executed in his Kurdish jail anyway. Good riddance.

As for Begum... she’s an evil monster. An ISIS equivalent of a nazi prison guard.

To the posters on here feeling sorry for these people... answer this: if they killed YOUR child, would you still feel the same level of sympathy towards them?

@Namenic
“Why not allow them to keep citizenship and put lifelong restrictions on their travel?”
Because if someone is a citizen, you cannot bar them from travelling to and residing in their country of citizenship. It’s against international law. So restricting travel is not an option, it would actually force the people of the U.K. to live next door to terrorists that tried to kill or killed fellow british citizens and want to destroy the U.K. and it’s way of life.

“generally this turns into backlashes against entire communities where we can hardly breathe with fear. ”

Yes it has the potential for that. But FOIA requests have been published online showing very few people get their citizenship stripped. Something like 46 had theirs stripped in 2015 and the majority were because they obtained the citizenship through fraud, not because of terrorism. I too would wave a flag if it started to be something that was applied based on suspicion alone.