Alfie Evans 6

[CamomileTeaShotofVodka]

Following on from the last thread. If there's one already please do delete this one.

Remember not to speculate or make negative comments about the family or discussions will be stopped.

Thoughts are with Alfie tonight

Such an important and sensitive topic.

being free doesn't stop us improving it.

Ah yes. You realise counselling has been offered here to right?

Want2Be, I didn't raise the issue of access?

Bunty HCPs have been threatened with criminal proceedings, accusations of murder. I really doubt many will be willing step into an environment with the family at such close quarters without back up. And in this case they certainly would have the choice - this isn't community nursing.

derxa I dont know where the information came from which is why I didn't state it as fact - it was mentioned on more than one occasion during the previous 5 threads about this little boy which is why it seemed worth mentioning when Buntyll asked..

None of us know for certain what is going on inside that little boys room, even the so called 'facts' are only one person's interpretation of what they have heard/seen and could easily be right or wrong.

I don't think talking to the parents about Alfie going home is a change of direction. The judge gave a pretty strong steer that he expected the hospital at least to think about this; they said it would take 3-5 days, albeit that they also said they didn't see how it would be possible in terms of the safety of staff. However, that was only just after it had been put to them, so they obviously hadn't had time to think and talk it through. I didn't have the imipression that they were closing the door on it.

Buntyll
It is true that HCPs can't choose who they treat, but all HCPs, including those providing end of life care have the right to work in a place where you don't feel threatened or with the threat that you could be facing a private prosecution if the patient dies.

Working in the community is challenging, but in the case of Alfie, you'd need to find staff who were willing, probably doubling up for safety and to protect them against accusations if the care was different from the family's expectations, both from a physical threat and professional threat (reporting to NMC/GMC).

So while you can't choose, you can expect a full risk assessment to ensure staff are safe from harm - not sure I'd want to be responsible for that risk assessment - how do you assess the risk posed by random people on Facebook, after seeing the hospital being stormed etc? Not just while providing care, but when you leave the home / to and from work.?

I think the hospital QC also suggested that there were concerns that if he goes home, that the family may try and take him to Italy.

Gnother Yes you did. You said infant mortality is high. This rate is high because of the poor being poorer compared to the UK.

Also Canada and Denmark are way ahead of the NHS and you don't have the same issues as the US.

It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of the hospitals will treat a child at no cost if you agree to your DC being used for medical research. There are also catholic hospitals who have a policy of maintaining life if that is what you choose and the Catholic Church will pay for care if you can't afford it.

Blobby I wasn't annoyed with what you said. I just don't know where people get this info from. They seem to know everything about Tom and Kate Evans' personal life and none of it is reported in the press - even the hated Daily Mail.

I know I said infant mortality was high, Want2b. However, you responded with "I am not talking about access" which didn't seem to relate to that point.

Imho I think the HCPs will give the care for Alfie no matter where he is or how difficult the job. This is what we do , day in day out. It is a known part of the job, we really make a difference and we get far more from the job than we give. The staff involved would think of caring for Alfie as an honour. They wouldn't think of their own needs.

Alfie would be dead already in the US, or at the very least his parents would have seven figure bills to pay, and no way of paying them.

The risk assessment for the child going home regarding the safety of staff is going to be huge and complex. You say a HPC can't chose who they treat, but in a case such as this, you will have to find staff willing to go into that situation. If they merely told someone they'd been allocated the case and that was that, it would be incredibly unfair. There will be community staff out there who are willing to do this work. Absolutely there will. But you can't expect it to be given to someone as any case would be. It's far too complex for that.

There are various people on social media saying they wouldn't want their child to be treated at a British hospital in case their wishes a parents weren't complied with.

Thinking about it, this episode makes me think I wouldn't want me or my child to be treated in, for instance, an Italian Roman Catholic hospital if there is the likelihood that they would insist on procedures to keep us alive when it was against our interests. But I'm not sure whether that is the case. Is there a DNAR procedure in Italy?

derxa thank you for clarifying - I dont post very often and always wonder if I upset folk when I do

Mrsmade, do you think HCPs would be willing to care for a baby in his home in circumstances were there was a substantial risk to their safety from a mob outside? Surely even the most dedicated HCP would hesitate at that one?

And in any event, I suspect that, even if they were, a responsible employer wouldn't let them, unless it were possible to put in place some cast-iron guarantees of safety.

Following MNHQ's latest comment directed at me, I'm going to hide this thread. I think this case raises some serious issues about the way social media is feeding a mob mentality but god forbid we'd have a rational discussion. I think that's more tasteful than speculation about the state of little Alfie's health which none of us know about or have the right to, which has been allowed to remain on this thread.
When I think of some of the nastiness that's allowed to stand on MN .....,

In the US all black mothers and babies face a shockingly high mortality rate, even those who are well off. That is because of the shocking levels of racism, and nothing to do with poverty.

If you are white and well off in the US you can get great healthcare, but everyone else often gets terrible care. I still remember watching that video of the women in the emergency care room who collapsed on the floor and lay for a few hours dying there. No one did anything including staff and she did die.

Gnu , seriously yes I do think there would be HCPS willing to do this . I have worked in similar circumstances with the threat of domestic violence from family members hanging over my head. Your inherent compassion won't let you do anything other than what is the best for the child. I truly mean that .

t's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of the hospitals will treat a child at no cost if you agree to your DC being used for medical research. Absolutely shocking and horrific situation.

The baying mob have made well documented and real name threats to the hospital staff. hence i can see no way that a safe working environment can be provided outside the hospital.

consequences. in this case, the mob have ensured that the child cannot go home.T

btw i think this thread has been a sensitive and intelligent discussion.

Just saw a AA member (from America) compare the NHS workers to the gestapo. I "reacted" to their comment with an angry face and before I could try to counter her argument... she went and reacted to my profile photo with a laughing face?
Really petty but it annoyed me

I accept what you say, Mrsmad, but there remains the fact that responsible employer cannot allow employees to put themselves in danger. There is also the issue of potentially invalidating insurance by action of that type.