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Original poster

Alfie Evans 6

999 replies

CamomileTeaShotofVodka · 26/04/2018 01:49

Following on from the last thread. If there's one already please do delete this one.

Remember not to speculate or make negative comments about the family or discussions will be stopped.

Thoughts are with Alfie tonight Star

Such an important and sensitive topic.

OP posts:
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8
nolongersurprised · 26/04/2018 12:51

birds has this doctor from Poland reviewed Alfie? Taken a history, done an exam, reviewed his imaging and other investigation results?

If not, then her opinion from a distance is irrelevant.

kirinm · 26/04/2018 12:53

The lack of mention of this Polish doctor from even the father suggests that she hasn't even spoken to them. Don't you think he'd be all over this?

CommunistLegoBloc · 26/04/2018 12:54

They don’t have to show the ‘world’ anything. They have to rely on their own numerous and consistent clinical findings and apply them to Alfie’s care. They owe the public nothing. And they also can make no further pronouncement on his medical test results due to patient confidentiality.

kirinm · 26/04/2018 12:55

Also, they don't have to "show the world". They have to demonstrate it to the Court. Which they have done. Repeatedly. And despite his suggestion of misdiagnosis today, Tom Evans hasn't disagreed with the ultimate prognosis.

GrumbleBumble · 26/04/2018 12:56

pittapatter do I think they would succeed in getting to Italy? No. Do I think they would try? Unsure. Do I think the EoL plan will be carefully followed and complied with? No. Do I think some well meaning crank from AA will attempt to feed him - insert choice of crazy cure here - very possibly.
If there was acceptance from the family then I would be in favour of trying everything to get him home (and let us not forget there isn't even really a home for him to go to) but TE still thinks he will get better until they can wrap their heads around the facts I don't think it will be in Alfie's best interests or definitely "safe" for medical staff that would be needed to accompany him.

ShatnersWig · 26/04/2018 12:56

Birds This is a very frightening statement by you, in my opinion: We cannot hand Doctors, Scientists absolute power

We haven't. The COURTS have that. You seem to be suggesting that what the parents WANT should have precedent over both doctors and the courts to decide what is in the best interests of the child. While I will agree that as human beings we can all make mistakes, if you have pretty much EVERY doctor saying there is nothing to be done for someone to bring them any quality of life, surely that has to hold the most weight? Even this hospital in Italy has said there is nothing they can do to improve Alfie's condition. He will still die. He will have no quality of life. It is solely about where palliative care would take place.

Stating that parents should decide what happens is a very frightening thought when it comes to medicine.

Birdsgottafly · 26/04/2018 12:57

nolongersurpriced her opinion is irrelevant in terms of Alfie's Care, But not in terms of Public perspective about this situation.

There are mass protests organised around the Country to coordinate, on Saturday morning. There are protests happening outside of Buckingham Palace at 4pm today.

This situation can't just be one of Silence from AH.

NoKnownFather · 26/04/2018 12:59

Wasn't going to comment as I haven't read every post, but skimmed the majority...and all I can say is this is so very sad on every level and I truly feel for everyone concerned. Most of all poor little Alfie.

Such a pity that some of those involved, aren't putting his best interests ahead of their own.

So sad......all the best little man! Sad

NerrSnerr · 26/04/2018 13:00

We cannot put Alfie through further tests just to please the world and his wife. The degeneration in his brain is known, it can only get worse and they know it’s deteriorating. Just because Alfie can’t feel pain is an awful reason to do another MRI. He’s not a clinical trial or interesting case. He’s a baby who is being kept alive to appease his parents. Where is Alfie’s voice in this? He must have an independent advocate?

kirinm · 26/04/2018 13:01

Birds - are you deliberately ignoring the fact that AH have patient confidentially issues to deal with. Or the fact that their evidence has been put before a Court. People would fully understand their position if they bothered to read the judgments. What on earth do AH have to say to anyone other than the parents and the Court.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the Queen, the public or other countries. Christ. How ridiculous.

Efrig · 26/04/2018 13:01

I totally agree with previous posters who have observed that these cases will have repercussions for all of us. I’ve been nursing and doing end of life care for almost 30 years now and have noticed a significant shift in people’s attitudes and emotional responses regarding death and end of life issues. It is the last taboo and many people refuse to face these issues, frequently to the detriment of the patient. I won’t go into details on a public forum about the things I’ve seen and been involved in, suffice to say I have seen many horrendous deaths.

The refusal and inability to deal with end of life issues doesn’t just affect relatives, but doctors and nurses as well. I’ve known clinicians who have been unable to have necessary conversations regarding their patients. This directly leads to inappropriate tests, procedures and treatment which is damaging and harmful. It causes pain, indignity and suffering.

To anyone who is concerned about this - you can download template advance directive forms online - do it - fill it out, have your signature witnessed and then the form signed by that witness and take it to your GP - give it to them and tell them to include it on your medical records - tell your relatives. Do not rely on your relatives doing the right thing by you if you become gravely incapacitated - relatives go to pieces in extreme circumstances due to emotion and are not reliable. Get things in writing. Have it reviewed and re-signed annually.

It takes wisdom and courage to do the right thing by patients who have no hope. The end of life protocols can appear strange and unpleasant to the public - they’re not. I have never, ever seen them misused or lead to anything other than a peaceful and dignified death. The Liverpool Care Pathway was a good tool - a tool is only as good as the people using it though. I never saw it misused in my sector. Its abolition has now had the effect of leaving the public confused, mistrusting and suspicious regarding end of life practises. People are suffering because of this!

wormery · 26/04/2018 13:02

Yes he has an advocate

MynameisJune · 26/04/2018 13:03

@nerr yes Alfie has an independent guardian I’m not sure where she is whilst they are trying to resus him over and over again.

Birdsgottafly · 26/04/2018 13:03

ShatnersWig, no i'm not. Alfie is going to die. There was a shit storm around this. I think that it could have been handled much better and the Parents begging for Oxygen and Masks in the middle of the night and doing Mouth-to-Mouth, should ever have happened.

There have been gross mistakes in the way this has been handled. If Alfie is deteriorating as much as they say and can't feel anything, there wasn't any harm being done (as defined in Child Law), by halting things, when it reached it's peak and trying a different way of working.

You are more concerned by parents having power than professionals, that is always an ongoing debate.

CuntinuousMingeprovement · 26/04/2018 13:03

AH not only don't have to show the world but they can't. They cannot engage with this apparently psychic Polish doctor even if they want to, because of patient confidentiality. This is the sort of thing being referred to upthread.

NerrSnerr · 26/04/2018 13:03

Thanks worm. It really feels like Alfie’s best interest have been lost in all this.

ShatnersWig · 26/04/2018 13:04

Birds Are you even reading the thread? It's been said umpteen times that AH aren't ALLOWED to comment. Why do you continue to press negative points that have already been clarified several times?

whilstlersmother · 26/04/2018 13:05

I don’t think there is any chance that Alfie can be flown to Italy. Any foreign aircraft cannot fly in U.K. airspace without permission.
Nor do I think they will find a maverick UK pilot to break the law and fly them there.
Any attempt to remove AE from the jurisdiction of the UK courts could be very harmful to him and there are alternatives to air travel.
This may sound a bit John le Carré but possibly not too far fetched.

Birdsgottafly · 26/04/2018 13:05

MynameisJune the Judge disagreed with a lot of what the Guardian said and overruled them. I think her role in this has ended, as such, on the matter of his palliative Care. The Court has made it's judgement and the Guardian agreed.

MarvelleGazelle · 26/04/2018 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MustBeDueSomeBetterFeet · 26/04/2018 13:11

@FlyingBird that's very useful.

Birdsgottafly · 26/04/2018 13:11

ShatnersWig, they can't comment on Alfie, in particular, but there are things there legal representatives and the Spokesperson can do.

The Hillsborough Tradegy has now been bought into this.

We could do without the reaction to Alfie's death that will be coming. Things need to be done to minimise the next situation. I said a few days ago that the Media should have been challenged on the use of 'treatment' being denied.

Birdsgottafly · 26/04/2018 13:12

tragedy, even.

NerrSnerr · 26/04/2018 13:13

We could do without the reaction to Alfie's death that will be coming. Things need to be done to minimise the next situation.
But not at the expense of a dying baby. That’s not Alfie’s responsibility. We can’t give him an MRI or keep him alive to stop others being idiots.

brogueish · 26/04/2018 13:13

Re Dr Palgan, the Polish doctor who hasn't examined Alfie - she said "Certainly this is not a dying child. In Poland and I think in other European countries as well, children like this are simply taken care of with palliative care or home care.”

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951353/Alfie-Evans-update-dying-doctor-Alder-Hey-Hospital-prison-health-latest-news

I'm confused, when would palliative care be used except for end of life?