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Is there a thread about the poisoning of Skripal? [title edited by MNHQ]

998 replies

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/03/2018 13:41

I've not seen a thread about it at all, but surely there must be?

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BishopBrennansArse · 15/03/2018 11:50

This is making me increasingly antsy particularly given there's plenty that demonstrates this isn't necessarily down to Russia.

unweavedrainbow · 15/03/2018 12:03

Tbh, I think one of the issues is that Russia has been so arsy in its response to us. I know it isn't nice to be implicated in a thing like this, but the international protocols are such that if you are challenged, the burden of proof (so effectively the requirement to explain how it wasn't them) lies on the accused (CWT, Article IX, Paragraph 2). The fact that they're bitching rather than complying makes them look guilty, even if they're not.

BishopBrennansArse · 15/03/2018 12:11

Agreed, their response has been like they gave something to hide. I'm not suggesting that's automatically guilt, though.

ohfortuna · 15/03/2018 12:24

Yes Russia has been defensive and sarcastic it's just not a mature way to behave is it

counterpoint · 15/03/2018 12:24

*"I am wondering why we don’t supply a sample to be analysed under supervision"

Because it's fucking dangerous stuff, and OPCW are coming to it, not taking it out of secure lab.*
@meditrina

If the UK can confirm we have never before held any of this stuff, they need only supply the data used to conclude what the substance tested is supposed to be. You know, raw data, e.g. GC Mass Spec or other more fancy analytical methods.

ohfortuna · 15/03/2018 12:27

Not adopting the norms of good behaviour as set out by other countries is a way of saying up yours we are powerful enough to do what we want

pestilentialboundary · 15/03/2018 12:34

Who stands to make money/power from this awful incident?
Our 12 YO defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, has just got £48 million for a new "defence centre". www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43405686

ohfortuna · 15/03/2018 12:46

I agree that we should ask who stands to gain from the situation however, that doesn't necessarily mean that those who benefit deliberately brought the situation about
It's maybe more that they are opportunists ....adept at gaming and turning everything to their own advantage

nursy1 · 15/03/2018 13:12

defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, has just got £48 million for a new "defence centre

And our troops are going to be vaccinated against anthrax. 😕

Is this a new post Brexit trading opportunity? I, for one, don’t want our country to have anything to do with that kind of stuff.

I have vaccinated soldiers against anthrax. It has a high level of side effects and many refused ( although that’s quite hard to do in an army culture).
It was one of the vaccines implicated in Gulf War Syndrome

ohfortuna · 15/03/2018 13:12

New scientist article

What are Novichok nerve agents and did Russia do it?
By Alice Klein

The poison used to target ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury was a Novichok nerve agent, UK prime minister Theresa May revealed yesterday.

The chemical was identified by the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, May told the House of Commons.

Novichok nerve agents – also known as the “N-series” – were secretly developed by the former Soviet Union beginning in the 1970s. They followed the “G-series” of nerve agents made by Germany in the 1930s and the “V-series” made by the UK in the 1950s. Novichok means “newbie” in Russian.

The small amount that we know about these agents is based on reports from Russian chemist Vil Mirzayanov, who exposed the development programme in 1991.

Novichoks work in the same way as other nerve agents, which disrupt nerve signals to the muscles by inhibiting an enzyme called acetylcholinesterase. The gaps between nerve cells become flooded with acetylcholine, causing continuous contraction of the muscles. Symptoms include convulsions and difficulty breathing.

According to Mirzayanov, some Novichoks can be eight times as deadly as VX, the V-series agent that was used to kill North Korean exile Kim Jong-nam last year. Just 10 milligrams of VX on the skin can be lethal.

There are no previous reports of Novichoks being used in battle or assassinations. However, Andrei Zheleznyakov, a Russian scientist involved in their development, reportedly died not long after being exposed to a small amount that leaked out of a rubber tube in the lab.

The most potent members of the N-series are reportedly Novichok-5 and 7. We know these are chemicals that contain carbon and phosphorus like the G-series – which includes sarin, tabun, soman, and cyclosarin, and the V-series – which includes VX, VR, VE, VG and VM. However, their exact structures are a mystery.

According to Mirzayanov, both are binary agents, meaning they are made from two precursor chemicals that are mixed together just before use. These precursors could be made at pesticide or fertiliser manufacturers without arousing suspicion, he says.

The use of a Novichok in the attack on the Skripals makes it highly likely that Russia was involved, because no one else knows how to make them, says John Lamb at Birmingham City University, UK. “The Novichok family was specifically created by Russia to be unknown in the West and as such it’ll be one of their most tightly guarded secrets,” he says.

But why would Russia employ such an incriminating nerve agent? “It could have been a demonstration of capability,” says Lamb. After allegedly poisoning ex-Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko with radioactive polonium-210 in 2006 without serious consequences, they may simply have felt that they could get away it, he says. Novichok precursor chemicals are also safer to transport and handle than ready-made nerve agents, he says. However, Russia has denied any involvement.

Identifying the Novichok agent would have been a painstaking process, says Martin Boland at Charles Darwin University in Australia.

If someone shows signs of nerve agent poisoning, the first thing to do is to check for decreased acetylcholinesterase activity. This reveals if a nerve agent has bound to the enzyme.

Next, the specific nerve agent must be identified. A telltale sign of poisoning with sarin, for example, is unnaturally high blood levels of fluoride, which is used to make the nerve agent.

Because no standard test exists for Novichoks, defence officials may have taken fluid from the Skripals’ spinal cords, isolated the acetylcholinesterase enzyme, and analysed the structure of the nerve agent attached, says Boland. Western intelligence agencies probably have knowledge of the exact Novichok structures, allowing them to detect a match, he says.

The Skripals are probably receiving the same treatment that is given for other types of nerve agent exposure, says Boland. This includes atropine to block the effects of acetylcholine, pralidoxime to restore acetylcholinesterase activity, diazepam to stop convulsions, and ventilation to assist breathing.

Their survival so far suggests the Novichok poison was designed to be slow-acting or to be absorbed through the skin, because this route of administrations takes longer to cause symptoms than inhalable nerve agents like sarin, says Lamb.

Parts of Salisbury – where the attack took place – are still cordoned off, and Public Health England has advised anyone who was close by to wash their clothes. This precaution is necessary because we don’t know how long Novichoks persist in the environment, says Boland.

nursy1 · 15/03/2018 14:01

So reading that, I’m thinking the Skripals must have got this slow acting agent on their hands from somewhere in their home ( because that’s where the policeman, who had no contacts with them was exposed) Unfortunately, the Skripals went out and spread it around Salisbury

DonkeyOil · 15/03/2018 14:15

I can't help thinking it somehow came over with Yulia (unwittingly?), who had arrived in the UK on Saturday evening, the day before they were discovered on the bench.

nursy1 · 15/03/2018 14:39

Wasn’t there some sort of package delivered to their house?. I seem to remember that being mentioned early on.

TammyWhyNot · 15/03/2018 14:47

"Well this stuff is obviously easy enough to transport into the UK and deliver it to Salisbury......."

Or make in Salisbury.

One way or another, it can't be a co-incidence that Yulia had arrived the day before. She was, for whatever a reason, a target alongside her father, or implicated in another way.

jasjas1973 · 15/03/2018 15:10

...or they wanted her dead too? everyone is assuming he was the target but perhaps it was her all along..... i suspect we ll never know.

I do think the UK needs to firm up its evidence, not only thats its from Russia but that it has come from the Kremlin.

I wonder why the reaction is strong this time but wasnt back when Polonium was used, May was Home Sec when it was finally known that radioactive material used.

TrojanWhore · 15/03/2018 19:21

There are lots of (speculative) possibilities icw Yulia: it could have been timed with her visit just as extra obfuscation, or maybe something about her journey and belongings was relevant to the introduction of the nerve agent, or she was also a target for some currently unknown reason.

Or in deciding who to assassinate overseas, on the assumption it was a Russian governmental operation, Skripal and Yulia were quite deliberately chosen because the mother and son were already dead. Even though those deaths were not considered suspicious, there is the possibility that the underlying message is, traitor we will annihilate you and your family.

ChocolateDoll · 15/03/2018 22:05

I can’t believe our Defence guy said “Russia should go away and shut up!!!”

nursy1 · 15/03/2018 22:38

Gav’s going to tell his Mum, she’ll sort them out 😂

pestilentialboundary · 15/03/2018 22:54

www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/articles/article-ix-consultations-cooperation-and-fact-finding I am failing to find the bit that says "a state party shall tell another state party to go away and shut up".

Corbyn was quite boring really, he just asked if we had followed the rules. Given all the hassle of the CPS not following the rules recently, it was not an outrageous inquiry.

Gav's mum might have to tell them they are all being very naughty boys and should play nicely.

Honestly, three people are in hospital. They (politicians) could all behave like grown ups and try and sort out what happened properly without recourse to name calling.

LizzieSiddal · 15/03/2018 23:16

Even my 24 year old DD said “he looks about 12” when we saw Gav on the news.

We couldn’t believe he was our defence Minister Does he have access to the Big Red Button? Shock

gluteustothemaximus · 16/03/2018 10:49

Our defence secretary with Tracey Ullman...Grin

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 16/03/2018 11:24

Them Ruskies must be wibble-wobbling in their boots!

We've got baby wipes, packets of Daz .... and Gavin!!

SnowiestMountain · 16/03/2018 12:22

I see that Arsenal have just drawn CSKA Moscow in the quarter finals of the Europa League, you couldn't make it up!!

drivinmecrazy · 16/03/2018 12:52

Boris has really stepped up to the plate this morning and royally fucked off the Russians in the unique way that only he can by stating that Putin is directly responsible.
Even for me that's a bold statement to make.
Obviously not taken well with the Kremlin saying his comments are "unforgivable ".
When our first line of defence is Gavin and Boris is there really any hope?
Where's Spitting Image when you need it??

OhYouBadBadKitten · 16/03/2018 13:38

Boris needs a slap.

On the one hand we have Corbyn making headlines, for his usual, let's make really really sure before we start a war stance which is coming across as weak and on the other we have Boris jumping ahead of where any proof lies and undermining our position as a result.

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