"No-one could say they were innocent. Those slags dancing around"

[Caligula]

This sent a chill through me. The level of hatred for women in some of the men we live among, is so worrying and is not seen as a particular issue. This was what one of those men jailed today said about blowing up the Ministry of Sound. The idea of young women dancing around, enjoying thenselves, was such anathema to him, that he honestly thought if he blew them up, that would be recieved more positively in the general population as these particular victims wouldn't be "innocent".

WTF is going on in these men's minds and why isn't this mysogyny being taken as seriously as racism?

NN the English language would be very unlikely to have a unisex word for 'slag' because there simply isn't a unisex concept of 'slag'. The connotations of an 'up for it' young man are not the same - because of dual standards. If there was a condemmnatory attitude to 'slag-like' young men, there would be a word to cover it.

Perfectly put Blu

NN I more or less agree with you about the mindless "slag culture", but I agree with MB that in the context of this thread, it does come across as a sort of sneaking sympathy (not necessarily support of course) for the loons who hate the idea of young girls dancing around and revelling in their youth, freedom and sexual promise so much that they are delighted they happen to be a large subsection of the target they're planning to kill.

And I do think you're wrong in seeming to claim that because they're indiscriminate about blowing people up, and English doesn't have a handy equal opportunity term for "promiscuous indiscrimate drunk individual", that somehow shows that they're not really mysogynist. The very fact that our language doesn't have such a term, is ample evidence of the mysogyny in our culture. The original post was all about why mysogyny is not taken as seriously as racism. If the bomber in question had said "those niggers/ jews/ queers dancing around..." there would have been hours of discussion in the media about the racism/ anti-semitism/ homophobia of the bombers. But slags goes almost unnoticed. Hatred of women it seems, is so normal that it's not worth commenting on.

I didn't know that MOD was blown up - can someone post a link?

have missed this on the news, thank you for this thread.

No, it wasn't. But it was a possible target for the terrorists who were convicted this week. The other possible target was Bluewater shopping centre. They wanted to kill and maim as many people as possible.

MOS was suggested because it was full of 'slags' (their word) who were obviously 'guilty' and dereved to die.

thanks MB

scary, horrible, thank God it didn't happen

It wasn't. There has been a trial on on London at the moment and one of the planned targets for a bombing campaign was apparently the Ministry of Sound

blu - that's an english thing then.
Not evidence of the bombers being more misogenistic than this society and this language. So no comfortable opinions about Muslim men hating women.

If they were misogenists, they would have targetted women, simple as that. They didnt.

mb, "we know we are wrong but we will refuse to examine and reform ourselves because you threatened us?" I tend to discourage this sort of attitude in my children.

No, if you read my post carefully you will see that I have no problem with you finding nightclubs distatesful. What I find distateful is the feeling that some people are somehow more deserving of terrorist actions than others, because of poor choices.

And be re-inforcing the attitude that night clubs are 'not innocent' you play into the hands of those who feel that they are 'guilty'

so NN your point is that these men were limited by the English language in their efforts to express who they were going to target as their victims? What brilliant reasoning.

forgoodness sake, They were targeting 'slags,' women that they saw as not being worthy of life,. This is about thair hatred, not they lack of vocabulary

NN, what an extraordinarily simplistic idea, that they would have targeted only women if they'd been mysogynists.

Hating women doesn't preclude hating other groups, you know.

I'm sure there's room in the bombers' hearts for lots of groups to hate. Hatred, like love, knows no bounds for some people.

The original suggestion is that it is misogynist to refer to women as slags.

if someone is a slag, it is not misogynist to say so. Offensive, maybe. Because you are criticising their behaviour, not something integral in them.
The misogyny accusation in the OP then rests on the supposition that girls in nightclubs who look like slags are not in fact slags. The OP seems to see them as innocently enjoying themselves, the man who said the original quote evidently thinks they are all up for it. The truth is somewhere in between, but closer to the all up for it.

Criticising girls who are slags doesn't give anyone the right to blow them up - I completely reject that argument about supporting bombers. Should we not have criticised government policy in Northern Ireland either, in case the IRA targetted the British government?

GSS - that is my point exactly. They dont hate the women any more than anyone else in the nightclub.
If you want an example of a violent misogynist, how about that man in the US who murdered several female engineering students in the 90s? Because they were taking jobs from men! That is a misogynist.
"muslim men are misogynists" is a popular belief, but in this case, it isn't really justified by the evidence, when you consider all attacks attributed to al quaeda - I wonder what are the relative numbers of men and women killed?
I dont want to excuse attacking people in any way, but neither do I want to pile every vice onto these people. That is such a propaganda thing to do. Look at the evidence, not your assumptions.

no ruty, I merely pointed out, that if there was a similar word for men that was as sound-bit friendly, you might have heard that as well or instead.
don't you agree that the english language is somewhat lacking in this field?

no-one has made the blanket statement that 'muslim men are mysogenst' The people who were were the terrorists.

they , however made the blanket statement that women in night clubs were slags. Do you also feel that all women in night clubs are slags?

I read a facinating review of a book written by someone who drifted towards very hard line, fundimentalist, demi terroris 'islam'. The first thing that they were taught was that they were superior to all women. The second thing was that there wer superior to all 'lesser' muslims

The author, who has now returned to his original gentle sufi-ism, now fully realises that none of this is islam. It is hatred.

"If someone is a slag then it is not mysogynist to say so"

Er... yes it is, the word slag is just a way of reducing women to the sum of their "unacceptable" sexual behaviour.

The OP isn't a "muslim men are mysogynist" rant, it's a question about why mysogyny is so normal it goes unnoticed, when other group hatred is recognised, analysed and condemned.

NN i cannot argue with someone who says that it is ok to call women slags 'if they are slags'. That is totally unacceptable.

And everyone here has said misogyny in our society is terrifying, no one has referred to Muslims. But if you think misogyny is less prevalent in Muslim societies than our own than i think you are looking at things rather selectively.

If an old lady says "Look at those half-naked hussies cavorting around" then it is accepted as perfectly normal.
If a muslim man says the same sort of thing, he is a misogynist.

If the word slag is misogynist, then so is bitch, tart, cow, tramp, slapper and all other female only insults. Anyone who has ever used them is a misogynist. That includes most mumsnetters.

yes, they are unpleasant terms. they describe certain sorts of behaviour, and as such, are acceptable as part of the language.

mb, a large number (not all of them) are. Puts you right off your Horlicks, seeing Union Street, or Weymouth beach, on a Saturday night, I can tell you.

hmm...you may think they are acceptable terms. Lots us very much don't.
And yes, when someone who refers to women as 'slags' and plans to murder them, I think I can safely say they are misogynist.

And I find you extraordinarily misogynist for example.

The planning to murder is a separate issue, Aloha. It is the separation between community and the individual in religion, and nothing to do with the misogynist question.

you havent answered my question - do you also consider the other terms I listed to be misogynist?

I find them all fairly unpleasant, I should add, but legitimate as part of the language.

Their comment was mysogynist because they considered all of the women there to be 'slags', regardless of their behaviour. Simply being a night club made them 'slags'. Bevause in their twisted little minds any woman out and having fun, free and unhampered by their behavioural expectation must be a 'slag'.

Well bollocks to that.

And the minute that you start to catagorise the victims as 'innocent' and 'guilty' you play right into their twisted little hands.

Interesting that you assumed that we had said that all muslims are mysogonists.

yes i do consider the other terms you reeled off misogynist. And i find it distasteful when other women use them too. Unless they are using them in a tongue in cheek way. I find your reasoning on this thread rather questionable NN.

I simply find it misogynist and sinister to start saying 'well some of them were slags'. What is a 'slag'? Someone who is sexually active? Why does that make someone bad?

Of course it is misognyist to call all women in a nightclubs slags. Ugh, it is horrible. I don't really go clubbing anymore, was never really into it but none of the girls I know who go do so in an attempt to sleep with men. I am sure there are many who do (but I would still say calling them slags is disgusting and misogynist) but there are many who don't. Sweeping generalisations about the 'youth of today' really irritate me.