"No-one could say they were innocent. Those slags dancing around"

[Caligula]

This sent a chill through me. The level of hatred for women in some of the men we live among, is so worrying and is not seen as a particular issue. This was what one of those men jailed today said about blowing up the Ministry of Sound. The idea of young women dancing around, enjoying thenselves, was such anathema to him, that he honestly thought if he blew them up, that would be recieved more positively in the general population as these particular victims wouldn't be "innocent".

WTF is going on in these men's minds and why isn't this mysogyny being taken as seriously as racism?

It is rather like all the crap about 'innocent' vitims of AIDs who got it via blood transfusion. As if in some way you could be 'guilty' of getting a disease.

I don't give a tinkers cuss how anyone behaves, they are all 'innocent' victims of people with a twisted world view.

And they are just as capable of killing muslims who they think 'fail' in their standards.

They simply justify the fact that they want to kill and maim.

no, mb, I think people were readier to jump on this quote because it was said by a muslim man.

Well, I will look forward to seeing all the other terms I listed jumped on whenever they appear on mumsnet in future, as they are all apparently misogynist and therefore forbidden.

aloha - a crime against oneself is also a crime you know.

I find the reasoning of those who say that nobody must be blamed for anything, in case that makes them a target for violent attack, pretty worrying. Are you all covert Thatcherites (collection of individuals)? Isnt it more important to emphasise that violent attack is unacceptable, rather than try to defend the undefendable?

Only somehow, I think these terms will carry on being used....

I think we were readier to say it because of a. what he said, and b. what he did.

Better to judge people by their actions than to make sweeping generalisations, don't you think?

that was my point at the start, mb - his actions being that he DIDNT propose to attack women only!

People who have casual sex and who drink alcohol are not undefendable. NN. They may be ill advised, but they can still be good people, people with love to give and who are somebody's sons and daughters. who are you to judge?

And it is absolute rubbish to say that it is because it is a Muslim man that we are picking up on it. It is because he wanted to kill them that we are picking up on it.

I have expressed the fact that i don't like women calling other women bitches, etc, here and elsewhere, unless it is tongue in cheek. I am not going to go around picking up everyone who says it here because as far as i know they don't have murder in mind.

But he did call them slags. All of them. Without knowing them, their lives or their ambition. The good, and bad that they could do with their lives. In his twisted heart, full of hatred, he called them slags and whores, because they didn't fit in with his world view.

Welll, I went to night clubsm, so I guess that make we a slag as well then, and deserving of death.

Fuck that.

He has the guilty one, not them.

ruty & mb, the killing is a separate question from the misogyny one. he can be a murderer, but not a misogynist.
I have listened to hours of this sort of thing from people who despise english society, but are not murderers, and can assure you it is not misogynist. With one breatht they will say english women are slags, and with the next, they will say something equally scathing about english men.

I always find it astonishing how many people on mn expect to be able to behave badly and not be judged for their bad behaviour. The whole anti-racism, anti-sexism movements started because people were being judged for what they WERE, rather than for what they DID. Yet now, people seem to want to extend it, so that anyone can behave how they want and not be judged. Yes, those people may be judged well at different times in their lives - that's one reason why they shouldnt be murdered! But when they behave badly, they should expect to be judged accordingly.

Just because they also hate men, it doesn mean that they are not mysogynist, Woem haters. They two are not mutuly exclusive

I belive that people can behave badly and be protected from their foolishness, because that is what the LAW says. We are protected by the LAW. Not by acting in a way that someone thinks we should.

What next. A women is 'asking for it' by being out at night?

By smiling at a man?

Is a wife 'asking for it' by asnwering her husband back?

Because women haters take all of thse things as licece to do what they like.

And once you cross the line into defining people as 'innocent' and 'guilty', where does it end?

Whi defines the innocence and guilt, you? me? or those terrorist bastards.

Thanks, I'll take the law as my protection.

of course he can be a murderer and not a misoygnist, but his words suggest otherwise. The only possible reason you have come up with is that the English language limited what he wanted to say, which i find both hilarious and depressing and as i already said, disingenuous.

'Yes, those people may be judged well at different times in their lives - that's one reason why they shouldn't be murdered!' So they shouldn't be murdered because they might turn out to be 'good' people, ie not having casual sex and drinking? Any other reasons or just that one? Good grief.

You talk a lot about you having the right to judge. And yet no one has the right to judge the hatred and intolerance of some who would live amongst us and enjoy the freedoms of our society but wish us dead, and maybe even plan it.

I think there is a lot wrong with the UK, politically [i oppose the Iraq occupation and boycott Israeli food] and socially. But if you cannot see the flaws in other societies and cultures I think you are taking a rather easy way out. Much easier to judge others than taking out a mirror.

yes, mb, I agree that people should be protected from their foolishness by the law. I still have the right to say if I think they are behaving badly though.

ruty - that was a joke about one reason not to murder them! of course there are many more reasons. That is why I put an exclamation mark, but as it is a serious subject, I didnt put the smiley, which sometimes comes across as patronising.
you are all mixed up again - I do judge this person badly for planning to murder people. However, I do not judge him badly for judging british society badly. The language point is not disingenuous - the word "slag" is a far more quotable soundbite than any word applied to men. I have already said, that I have heard just as much against british men as against british women, which is one reason why I dont agree with the misogyny judgment based on this quote.

Now here's another thought: if we are to ban the list of insults below from mumsnet, on the grounds that they are misogynistic, then in the interests of sexual equality, we should also ban Wanker, Prick, Dickhead etc. - insults which define men in terms of their sexual behaviour. What about other male insults like Tosser and Git? Do you realise that this would seriously cripple the Lone Parents section?? Sorry, but I need these terms when I am posting about my ex.

Nightynight, I am seriously disturbed by your comment, 'Many of the girls AND men in nightclubs ARE slags dancing around'

Because the word 'slag' doesn't just express disapproval or judgement. It expresses hatred. Did you genuinely mean what you wrote there?

I don't understand why you think that just becuase some mysogynist loony hates British/ non-muslim/ not the correct kind of muslim men as well as women, that means he can't be a mysogynist.

As I said before, hating one section of society doesn't preclude hating another.

And I still haven't seen much comment about why mysogyny is tolerated.

No-one's suggesting banning those words from mumsnet btw - just saying they think they're mysogynist.

I'm not going to pick someone up on every mysogynist term they use. Any more than I'm going to berate them for using textspeak. If I see it, I usually ignore it.

NN your argument has been a little bit mixed up from the beginning.

You forget that the terms wanker, dickhead, prick, etc, do not express sexual looseness or casualness. they are sexual terms but do not imply any sexual behaviour. Those terms [slag, whore etc] are reserved solely for women. i do not want to ban these terms, but when someone uses them it makes me clear on how they view women.

"Yes, those people may be judged well at different times in their lives - that's one reason why they shouldnt be murdered!" Sorry.I don't find that very funny. Rather bad taste, but not funny.

If you had one convincing and rational argument against this man being a misogynist [only a would be murderer - phew] then i would have been interested to hear it. Unfortunately you have not expressed one. Your arguments have been first that the English language is to blame and then that some women are indeed slags and therefore he was right to say so and then lastly that he wanted to target men too so couldn't be a misogynist.

kathy, you really have no right or reason to say that the word slag implies hatred, and to claim that I use the word in hatred.

it means someone who lives their life with no rules or self control (and should be re-claimed to apply to men as well). you can see them any Saturday night.

nice idea NN, but not what the word actually means. and it will never mean both men and women. And i don't think for one moment that the would be terrorist meant it to include a condemnation of men.

well said ruty

You are making a massive assumption about the women you see on saturday night.

How do you know they have no rules or self-control? Their rules may be different from yours, they may decide not to have any self-control on a saturday night, but how do you know what sort of rules and self-control they operate during the rest of the week?

How many of the women you judge slags hold down responsible jobs during the week? How many of them are mothers who maintain an iron order of homework and discipline at home and are out on a girl's night out, the first night out in six months?

How do you know?

I'm just gobsmacked by your intimate knowledge of these people.

Come on Nightynight, I'm sure any dictionary would consider it highly pejorative. You know it derives from a word for rubbish, don't you?

Are you seriously trying to claim it's neutral?

ruty, these terms to describe men apply to sexual behaviour. Therefore, they are comparable to the terms used to describe women.

Your summing up of my arguments is incomplete.
His ACTION was not misogynistic because he did not plan to target women alone.
I have heard a lot of this sort of opinion from people who are not and never will be murderers, so I am familiar with this sort of talk. I repeat again for the third time, it is not misogynistic - their contempt for the behaviour of english women is only part of their contempt for english manners and behaviour generally.

This is not a complete account of this man's views on english society - it is one particularly quotable soundbite, expressed in an inherently misogynistic language, and selected, presumably by journalists. But because it is said by a muslim man, he is judged to be a misogynist. As I also said earlier, these sort of views are traditionally expressed by the more conservative elements of British society -the "painted hussies" etc of english literature, without attracting judgements like "vile" and "chilling"

You are making a judgment about this person based on a short quote in the popular press, and I feel that your judgement reflects and propagates a stereotype of muslim men, when in fact they are not more misogynistic as a group than any other element of british society.

GSS, I dont just see them on a saturday night. they were my neighbours as well. like those women who were in the news for encouraging toddlers to fight the other week.

kathy, yes, it is a harsh word. are you suggesting it should be censored out of the english language? I dont agree.

No but I generally find people who use it to be quite nasty. Which was why I was surprised that you seemed to be using it and was hoping you didn't really mean it.

well, I used to think it quite a lot when I saw the behaviour of the nightclub goers in plymouth. Based on reality of how I saw them behaving, not prejudice.

Ive only ever once said it, when I had just been struck in the face by a missile thrown by one of these girls (on the street, in the middle of the afternoon, not in a nightclub), and it probably wasnt justified in that case, though throwing things at passing strangers was a pretty rubbish sort of thing for an adult to do.