'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

[kalex]

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

Did anyone listen to Radio 4 last night?

I thought it was really good, excellent, well balanced etc....I don't know hoe to find a link to it though....It was called 'The Commission' introduced by Nick Ross and was about the secrecy of Family Courts.....

LunarSea....Is it possible to find a link to it?

will post later but have a catapillar infestation in my conservatory and a virus on my computer, so I have to deal with these....If I can't sort out the catapillars it could be a new thread..... asking for help!!!

Could be worse Bunglie - caterpillars in the computer and a virus in the conservatory would probably be harder to deal with!

The link to listen to the programme again is here .

Bunglie, that's a really interesting court ruling. And the court of appeal... so if it rests there (and the local authority don't appeal against the ruling) I think that may make it binding on lower courts ? worth finding out from your own solicitors, anyway. Could be a route to getting people's names cleared in those cases which are blocked at the moment because the adoptions have gone through - if the appeal court says children are entitled to know the truth....

Thank you LunarSea - As usual you retain your 'Queen of the links' title

Sobernow, I agree with all that you have posted, their is little else to say, except if you have not heard it, please, if you have the time, (and I know it is difficult with 'little ones') do listen to it, because I thought it was sensible, well constructed and not focussing particularly on MSbP but on the Justice system that 'Gaggs' us. I would be really interested to know people views. I do not expect everyone to agree with my point of view, we are individuals, and have our own opinions. To me EVERYBODIES opinion is important and I would genuinely like to know your views. If you disagree then place say why? I, and I am sure others will promise not to 'jump down your posting'. I think it is important that if you disagree with what was said that you too have a voice here.

Edam, Keep your fingers crossed, (and legs!) but only time will tell what affect this ruling has. From my point of view it is important because it says that;

".......Children need to know the truth if the truth could be ascertained"

This means that I have a right to tell my children the truth....I hope, we will see as I said.

It was really interesting the bit about Australia I thought, but then I found the whole programme interesting and well debated. Someone told me that the US does not recognise MSbP, does anyone know anything about this?

Uhg! I hate caterpillars...Lunarsea I could cope with them in my computer....I would turn it OFF....end of the horrible, green hairy wrigglers!!

I think I shall be sent over the edge this weekend if they come back....so much for 'slimewatch' and my filming of feeding a snail pellets and watching it's demise at 5.30am (yes Bunglie had lost it!).

If I see One more wriggling hairy beasty I will freak....it will be liquid Derris all 'round, unless MNers have a better solution?? .

Uhg! I really do have a phobia of slugs, snails wiggly things and worms! I think I need to start a thread for this...perhaps a support group?

I just thought that I would like to ask you ALL a question, (that is excluding, Postsue, IKNT, Cheesy and Spuddy).

I am asking this in response to an email I received, but I would rather not say who from. However, I was concerned enough to place the ?accusations leveled against this thread? to you. I do NOT wish it to be defended with hostility?, but as a serious and constructive argument, which is how the email was worded to me.

It is this;

I accept that child abuse exists. I accept that parents do harm and even kill their children, not by accident but deliberately and that the full force of the law should be used, to not only punish these people but to 'treat' them as well for the psychiatric problems they must have in order to cause harm to one they have given birth to or loved as a parent. I would be very naive to say that child abuse does NOT exist. Unfortunately it does and children need to be protected from those persons who would/do cause abuse to them. There is a need for social workers and a judicial system that puts the interest of a child to the fore and protects a child?s identity.

My questions are simple really;

Do you think as a parent that the current child care system works, or do feel that due to PAST miscarriages of justice that you have lost faith in the current judicial system and Social workers etc. and that you are now more 'wary' or suspicious of their actions, judgments and motives in general, and as a parent, more wary of taking your child to see a doctor, because of the information which you are now aware of; either from reading 'my story' (or others) for example, or from articles that have been published in the press etc?

If the answer to the above is "Yes", can you explain to me why?

I am asking this ONLY because I need to satisfy myself that I have not done anything to make people feel that they will be "falsely accused" of something they have not done or caused any parent to mistrust social workers in general as being ?bad? people and not to be trusted.

It has been suggested to me, that I am scare-mongering and by doing so I am actually placing children at risk as 'people' will no longer trust the only system which we have at present, and the authorities we have available to protect our children.

I know that MNers will be truthful with me. This is an anonymous forum, but it is important to me, to know that I (and others) have not placed any child in danger because parents or carers are now wary and frightened of seeking help for fear of having that child removed from its loving family.

I am sorry to ask you this, but as I said this has been suggested to me, and I would like to know your HONEST opinions, as to whether this could be the case.

Please do not worry about posting something that may upset me. It will not.

Also, I would be grateful that if you agree with any of the above and that if it has made you 'more wary' of approaching a social worker or doctor, if, and I mean only if you have time etc. IF you could tell me why you feel like this and any suggestions as to how I could modify what, and how I post?

I realise that this is A LOT to ask from you all, but please will you think about it. I am aware that many of you have some very strong feelings on this subject and your support towards me and the other 'Mothers' has always been so wonderful I can not adequately express in words my thanks.

I feel that I should take this comment quite seriously because if this 'thread' in anyway prevents one single person from reporting suspected abuse, or any child is placed in danger because of it; perhaps because a mother has become mistrustful of doctors or child protection services then I feel that I should address this fact, but I do not know how.

PLEASE, do not take anything I have posted as a criticism of yourselves or your postings, I just need to know for my own 'peace of mind' if the impact of my views and experiences on you has been detrimental in any way?

As I have said I would rather not say where the criticism came from, but I am sure that it was not meant in a 'nasty' way and it did not come from the AP's of my own children.

With much love to you all and many thanks for your patience and understanding, as well as the tremendous support you have shown me and other mothers in similar situations to my own.

I would like to keep posting here and have no intention of stopping unless asked by yourselves, however IF I do need to address anything I would be only too pleased to do so.

Bunglie XX

I have lost faith in the child protection system. This is because I'm a medical journalist, am used to working with doctors and weighing up scientific studies and I can see very clearly how medical theories about child abuse have been misrepresented and misused in some types of court cases. Because I've worked, in the past, for an expert witness (not a doctor) and I know how evidence in other fields is examined and I can see that medical evidence in some types of child abuse cases does not measure up to the same standards of proof or logical argument. Because as a medical journalist I was aware of the Southall incubators research and the damage it caused to vulnerable premature babies and the way parents of those babies were treated ? this is linked to child abuse because Southall was regarded as one of the country's leading experts, to a degree where his 'evidence', even when patently absurd, was beyond challenge, yet the ethical basis of his own work was, to say the least, questionable. Because I've followed the Trupti Patel and Sally Clark cases; because I've listened to the stories of survivors of the 'care' system and I know how badly they are treated by those who claim to have their best interests at heart. It's a stain on everyone's conscience, the way looked-after children are treated.
Because I know Margaret Hodge's background and she should be ashamed of herself, let alone calling herself minister for children. Because she didn't just cover up child abuse in children's homes, but persecuted survivors of her cover-up when the story emerged recently.
Because I've spoken to some very eminent doctors about this and heard how much pressure they come under to fall into line even when they have very serious qualms about so-called evidence of abuse.
And because of the things I have learned from this thread. As a journalist I am far from naive and I am experienced in judging the stories I am told. And I've seen how those in authority sometimes treat people who dare to question them. And how medicine has fashions as much as any other field of human endeavour; whether you had your tonsils removed as a child depends very much on your age, not on clinical differences between one case of tonsilitis and another, to take one example at random.

Having said all that, I am still happy to take my child to the doctors when he is ill (although, to be honest, I would be worried if I had to go to A&E because he'd broken a bone falling out of a tree. But I'd suppress those concerns because my child's need for immediate treatment would outweigh my feelings). And if I was concerned that a child was being hurt, deliberately, I would take my concerns to the relevant authorities, fast. You couldn't possibly leave a child at risk because you know that there are failings in the system. I am more concerned with changing public policy so investigations into possible abuse are conducted properly and thoroughly. Snatching a child, suddenly (as happens) away from his or her home, primary carers and school is a huge trauma. It's necessary where there is real abuse. But if it is done to fit some fashionable ideology rather than the real interests of a child, it is a form of abuse. The courts do not appear to put the real interests of the child first. That is damaging, frightening and deeply wrong.

I also know, through my work, my friendships and my family, how vulnerable adults are treated by the care system and what can go desperately wrong in institutions. Recently social services swooped on an old people's home in Northampton. There was real evidence of neglect, at best, in this home which clearly needed attention. However, a dramatic raid, dragging elderly people out of their home, without any explanation to them, or any chance for them to pack or to say good-bye, or any contact with their relatives, so those relatives had no idea where their family member was, is outrageous. And likely to kill some of those people - I'm not exaggerating here, it is a fact that a change in environment can kill vulnerable elderly people. Anyone who has the slightest concern for those people or the slightest knowledge of their care would have planned this operation carefully and treated those people with respect. That didn't happen. And that is cruelty in itself. Any profession that can act in this way ? and that is far from an isolated incidence ? is failing desperately and in urgent need of reform.

Bunglie - I would be wary of dealing with SS for many many reasons - the North Wales (and other homes) child abuse enquiry, Margaret Hodge, Victoria Climbie. Your thread has contributed to this, but only in the sense you have raised awareness of an issue that I wasn't aware of before - i.e. that you can be cleared by a criminal court, whilst being punished by a family court for the same set of circumstances - not because of you per se. I would also be wary of SS as I suffered from depression/OCD whilst PG, so have regular HV visits (now down to 4 weekly - yay!), and my HV is authoritarian and has been highly critical, making me aware how the system can construct you as a "depressed mother/struggling mother". I agree with Edam that whilst I might feel nervous about taking a child to doctors/A & E for treatment partly due to nervous about SS, I would not be tempted to avoid the doctors for that reason. I also agree with Beetroot - that I would report abuse that I was certain of, but would not recommend that anyone get in touch with SS voluntarily unless absolute necessary.

at the end of the day MNetters are all adults, and all capable of forming our opinions on what people post - i.e. i don't think it is fair to blame a poster for how other posters may respond to a fair and honest friend

Frankly, I am more concerned, but not because of your thread Bunglie, but because of the facts of cases like yours. I certainly believe - know - that some parents hurt and even kill their children. But I don't believe that parents do this simply because they want to attract the attention of doctors, which is the theory behind MSBP. I think that's just a doctor-generated fantasy. And because it is a fantasy it is supported by 'symptoms' that could be anything - overprotective mother/uncaring mother, mother who cooperates with doctors/mother who resents doctors etc etc.
So yes, I would be worried if ds had several accidents and had to go to A&E, but hope that recent court cases and reforms would mean that a diagnosis of MSBP would be much less likely. I do not think that all drs and social workers are out to snatch kids. But I could not agree more with Edam's views on the thoroughly wicked Margaret Hodge.

Radio 4 now.....msbp discussion

Hi Sofia....Welcome back, I hope that you are feeling nice and calm, relaxed etc. after your holiday....

I have ONLY just read your posting...uhg!
Was it any good the Radio Prog?

Does anyone have a 'link' to it so that I can hear it? LunarSea........

Lastly, I shall reply in full in the morning, but thank you all for your answers to my rather long question. I really appreciate it. As you can probably work out I received some critisism suggesting that this 'thread' was actually putting chilcren at risk by 'scare-mongering' and preventing parents from either reporting abuse or from taking their own child to a doctor for fear of 'false accusations'.

Thank you for your honesty, I appreciate it.

I will post a full reply tomorrow....

Love to all Bunglie XX

I think that argument is the same one the Royal College of Paediatrics is using to avoid having to examine their own failings. Anyone who dares to utter a word of criticism of the way child abuse is investigated is somehow colluding in abuse or responsible for scaring doctors away from child protection work. Balls.

As all of you know, that was never my intention to prvent you from seeing a Dr. or a SW if necessary.
I felt I had to put the question to you, so that I could not be called 'biased', also because I thought that you should be aware of the critisism that I have been receiving (very) recently!
I am not bothered by it because;

1. You are all adults able to make up your own minds on what 'good parenting' is in your view.

2. To suggest that you would let your child suffer, and not take it to see a doctor when it is ill, quite frankly is 'ridiculous', and an insult to you all. No normal parent would let their child go without medical help if it was needed.

3. I feel that it is an insult to your intelligence to say that you would be, "adversly affected thereby placing a child at risk" because you are only "hearing one side of the story". I am sorry but both sides have been portrayed on mumsnet threads and I think that the mother's who post here are intelligent enough to know when they are being 'cautious', careful and aware of the current situation without placing any child in danger.

Personally, I think if a mother, just ONE mother is prevented from going through the anguish which Postsue, Spuddy, Cheesy, IKNT and myself have gone through because they are AWARE of the pitfalls in the system, then my conscience is clear. I do not believe that this thread IS placing children at risk.

Finally, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, who has been sending me these emails, I would ask you to STOP.
POST them on mumsnet, or I will do it for you if I get anymore, and I am afraid that I shall not leave out your name. I feel the parents that do post here have a right to answer your critisisms, and hence either post here or do not post at all.

No one is saying you do not have the right to your opinions, you do, but you do not have the right to harrass me. If you have a valid point, and I think your first email to me was expressing a valid point, so I posted the questions you posed here, however I feel that you should in future realise that this is not a place for 'slanging' matches. We may disagree, many posters disagree with what I post, but I do not allow that to affect me I take it as constructive critisism. I would ask you to do the same.

Sorry dear MNers , you have probably realised what has been going on in the background, in that I have been receiving personal emails which accuse me of putting children in danger and that I should stop posting! I suggest that they should post themselves and not use me as a third party!

LunarSea.....Anyone......
Does anyone have a link to the prog. on the Radio which Sofia mentioned yesterday?
If not can anyone tell me what it was about, and if it was any good, i.e. a balanced argument, or what?

Does anyone think it is time we started a new thread?
If so Do you think it would be good to put a synopsis at the beginning explaining a bit more about WHAT this thread is about so people do not thinkthat they are intruding on a private thread and realise that ALL input, positive and negative is welcomed?

What do you think?

Bunglie, I think it must have been this - on Woman's Hour yesterday, about SIDS. (Has listen again link.)

Bunglie, just seen your question of yesterday, and the answer is, no, your thread has not made me more cautious about going to the doctor's or reporting suspected abuse, but then, I would always have been cautious anyway, having been well aware of the idiosyncracies of these authorities (remember Cleveland and ritual satanic abuse? And whatever happened to Marietta Higgs?)

Edam and Aloha have said it all - any criticism of this thread is merely an attempt to shut up any criticism of those who ought to be criticised and reformed.

Bunglie, agree that the person emailing you should post here. If they are genuine, then they should have no problem doing that. If they don't post, then we'll know that they just wanted to give you a hard time, rather than have an honest debate.
If this person posts, others may agree or disagree with them, that's what MN threads are all about. I've disgreed with people on other threads but I've never felt unable to post. Maybe this person has a point of view that others, including me, would be interested to hear ? I do hope they feel able to post.

I copied this posting from another site, but thought it may be of interest to you all?

Tomorrow at 10 AM the RCPCH, RCP and FSID under the title the Kennedy Review announce their findings into SIDS post mortems.

Angela Cannings speaks for all parents who have lost their children in this manner.

GMTV 6.20 AM & 7.20 AM

BBC Breakfast 8.00 AM

Radio Five Live 8.30 AM

Sky News 9.15 AM

BBC News 24

ITN Main News and News 24 throughout the day.

It is the measure of this woman's courage that when I asked her to do all of this she iunflinchingly said yes, not for herself as you will hear.

Uhg! Just realised that this was YESTERDAY.....Bunglies Boobed! Sorry, but it seems that I missed a lot of coverage yesterday...sob!

Was any of it any good? Did you think it constructive? What is your impression so I don't feel as if I have missed it all? sob!

Thanks for the limk to Womans Hour Janh, but Sofia said "It's on now" and posted at 10.13.55 and said Radio 4....any ideas???

If you are in tonight Sophia, I will try and phone (after 9pn) so if you don't want to speak to me, just ignore your phone! .

Love to all, Bunglie XX

P.S. I have had no more emails, so I think the person concerned did not wish to 'go public', I am sorry in a way because it is ALWAYS good to have both sides of something, and I hope I do not make people feel as if they can not express THEIR opinions.

Bunglie, it was 10.13 yesterday! !

I heard the story on R4 and saw press coverage. Thought it was really positive (good idea to ensure paediatric pathologists do post-mortems and that expert witnesses aren't allowed to use court rooms to develop their pet theories) and very brave of Angela Cannings to comment.

Oops! I have done it again....thank you for the text message, but I did not read it until midday!
Apparently there was a prog. on Radio 4 this morning, I again missed it!

However, this bunglie has NOW tuned in her radio to Radio4, so when I wake up in the morning, no more Terry Wogan (sob!), but I shall listen to Radio 4 and NOT miss anythng else! (I hope!)

You will be pleased (or sad), I am not sure which, but my 'emailer' has stopped sending me emails and I hope that she will now feel able to post them here in future. We can all read them then and answer them constructivly. I DO think that this thread is a place to 'debate' and if someone feels that it should not be here or should address certain points I think we can do that without 'attacking' the poster as being wrong. We all have our own persnal views and this is what we express, when we post. So, please if you disagree with anything here, do not email me, but post it here and you will get a 'fair and constructive' response from everyone, not just me.

Sorry Sofia, I fell asleep last night, but I will phone you today - promise