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'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

356 replies

kalex · 22/07/2004 20:24

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

OP posts:
MeanBean · 30/08/2004 22:06

Another dreadful story. But I'm sure it will change, I've noticed a spate of stories recently in the media which deal with the issue of parents having their children taken away from them on no grounds in various different publications (not just for MSbP) so it looks as though there is a growing awareness of something not being right.

Bunglie and JanH, what d'you mean about conduits?! Should I e-mail someone my e-mail address?

JanH · 30/08/2004 22:08

meanbean, I sent you a CAT earlier, it will probably get to you tomorrow! bunglie has sent me a nice pic to send on to you

InnKogNeeToe · 31/08/2004 01:48

Hi All hope your all well?

Bunglie, thanks for the pics, it really looked a fun gathering as well as serving its rally purpose.

I so wish I could have been there, made me quite home sick for the familiarity and friends lost.......

Im glad all went ok for the day... Well done all..

Take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

LunarSea · 31/08/2004 09:57

Tomorrow (Wedesday) night on Radio 4 at 8pm (and again on Sunday at 10.15pm):

THE COMMISSION
Family Courts
Presented by Nick Ross

Are the family courts of England and Wales in crisis and in urgent need of reform? This week the Commission hears from parents and lawyers who fear that secrecy and poor standards of evidence are undermining child protection.

This programme airs all the issues surrounding this sensitive topic - and aims to be as even-handed as possible. Simon Goldhill, Professor of Greek at Kings, Cambridge, Ros Wright, former head of the Serious Fraud Office, and Peter Bazalgette from the company that make Big Brother study the evidence. Witnesses include John Batt, a solicitor in the Sally Clark case, and Ian McKay from the lobby group Families Need Fathers.

Bunglie · 31/08/2004 14:21

Thanks Lunarsea.....As usual you are on the ball!

This looks like it could be a very constructive programme, presenting all sides of the 'argument'
I have it in my Diary.

By the way it does look like the AP's are enjoying reading this site, so please forgive me for not posting my 'actions' here. There behaviour does seem to be very underhanded towards me at the moment and I am upset becauseI have always been 'open' and 'honest' with them.

Unfortunately perhaps too much, they realised that I wanted to stop my dd getting the copy of 'The Letter for Life' which my ds said "It screwed my brain up for a while", when asked if he thought his sister should have it, it was a very firm "No", so what did the AP's do, gave it to her so as to pre-empt anything I did to prevent it.

I have had a letter from a solicitor, (instructed by the AP's, but used by the local authority responsible for the removal of my ds and dd,) accusing me of 'Trying to re-write the history of events that surrounds the childrens adoption' I am doing no such thing. I feel that if they are old enough to have the social services side of things then they are old enough for the TRUTH.

I do not understand why two people, who I had considered to be innocent parties in all of this, have taken the TRUTH as such a threat?

I have been accused of making my DS and DD feel 'threatened' and causing 'disruption' to their family.

I have been told that neither of my children wish to see me alone....this contradicts my ds's text message rather...(I am glad I did not delete it).

I have been told that I may ONLY have contact if I do not mention ANYTHING regarding the childrens adoption or anything that could cause them upset and that they (the AP's) reserve the right to terminate the contact at any time. If I do not agree to this I get no contact.

I would like to know why they are so defensive, why they are so frightened of the children learning the TRUTH, why they are preventing the children from finding out the TRUTH.

I have always been open to constructive critisism, but I do not understand their actions and because of this I am having to modify my postings, no longer being able to give you updates or ask for your advice....Perhaps this was their intention, I really do not know, neither do I understand.

I ask them to post here WHY they are so frightened of the TRUTH, and how can we move forward in the best interests of the children.

I do not believe that it is in their best interest to have inaccurate facts given to them, but if I am wrong then I genuinely would like to know.

I am sorry to use this thread as a message to the AP's but if they will not talk to me on a reasonable one-to-one level then maybe they will answer here, I hope so because I am trying very hard to accommodate them, take their feelings into consideration and not apportion blame. It is very difficult though when faced with more false accusations and refusal to allow the children, now adults the freedom of choice.

lisalisa · 31/08/2004 15:10

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 31/08/2004 15:53

Lisalisa, No! No! No!

There are no 'private threads' on mumsnet, and I am so sorry that you felt that way, but THANK YOU for reading it and for you message of support.

I will pass it on to Yvonne, she is an incredible lady, believe me, I envy her, her strength and yet she still supports others, turning her personal tragedy into something positive. I wish that I were able to do the same.

I really hope that other MNers do not feel that this is a 'private forum'. We WANT comments from ALL, everyone who thinks anything, because otherwise we are in danger of becoming too 'one sided' which can not be constructive.

I am going to TRY (Can't promise ) to keep my postings short, I understand when you say they always seem to be long...yes that is off putting, even to me. We don't always have time to read them but I often save them for the evening and that is so I can cope and don't get too upset. But point taken and PLEASE, do drop in and say 'hello' again.

lisalisa · 31/08/2004 16:06

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 31/08/2004 16:32

Lisalisa, I am afraid it is the case.

There are now five of us.....
Cheeseball, (Cheesy) Spudbrain (Spuddy), Postsue (Just nice!)Inkogneetoe (IKNT) and of course myself! Bunglie (A bear of very little brain!)

At the beginning of this thread, you will see my first ever posting, this was posted in January, (I think, of this year). Since then with the help of MNers I have had all sorts of things change, some for the better and some for the worse. But one of the things that came out of my first posting, and I will now admit I posted it, turned off the computer and went for a cry. It took a while before I had the courage to turn on the computer and see what was there....to my absolute astonishment there was support, something I had never before had, but then I had NEVER told my 'story' before.
In the next few weeks not only did I get support but I got some excellent advice, this gave me confidence and gradually many MNers have become good 'virtual' friends that I Can rely on to guide me, help me and even put up with my little 'breakdowns'.
The best thing to come out of this, from my point of view is that 4 other mums have also told their stories here, (that does not include yvonne). Between us we have managed to offer support and help to each other.
Recently Cheesy was having a few problems and with the help and support from MNers, not only did we help Cheesy but we helped Spuddy in the process. MNers are really very special people and had it not been for their support we would all still be 'suffering' our own personal shame, and feelings of worthlessness.
Lunarsea-I don't know how she does it, is the 'Queen of the links', If there is an article or item out there in cyber-space she will find it!
We have had solicitors giving us wonderful information to help us.
Janh....Well she is my P.A. (I think that it should look impressive on her C.V. ), she helps to keep everyone up to date with events in a way that only she can....awe she's great!
But I think most credit should go to EVERYONE who has ever posted on this thread, you have made us feel like worthwhile people again, supported us, whether it be offers of curtains or coathangers...MNet has really been a lifeline to us and I think I can say in all honesty had it not been for MNet, I would have lost my sense of self-respect, my children and my sanity. I do not exagerate when I say that the support from 'ordinary mums' means more to us than any support group, because you have 'no axe to grind' no reason to believe in us and yet you do. I know that Mumsnet has been a real 'life-saver' and again I mean that literally, not metaphorically.
I promised I would try and keep my postings short! Oops!
Lisalisa, if you want to know anything then ask, One of us or the other mums will try to answer, but please do not feel excluded from the discussion, you do not have to be a 'falsely accused ' mum to be here, but we are glad that you are.
Bunglie XX

InnKogNeeToe · 01/09/2004 10:05

Hi Lisalisa, and all other posters on this thread

Hear hear Bunglie well put...
as most of you know Im InnKogNeeToe as it were in another country in order to keep the children with me... So as Bunglie has said mumsnet has been a life saver, it has also been a life saver to me. I dont get to chat with anyone from my home country, all friends were lost along with wrongfull accusations, and I have no family....

This site has been my sanity and life saver..
Ask away lisalisa we'll answer anything we can...

take care and be safe all
InnKogNeeToe

lisalisa · 01/09/2004 10:36

Message withdrawn

edam · 01/09/2004 10:57

Bunglie, can't remember if we have any solicitors on here, but I think the solicitors are trying it on and overstepping the mark, to conflate two cliches. They don't sound like actionable issues to me: i.e. not suggestions that the courts could rule on. In fact there is no legal issue here any more with regard to your ds and the issue with your dd runs out shortly.

Are the solicitors threatening to take any legal action or do they cite any laws with regard to any agreement over your conduct? If not, none of their damn business, I would suggest. While it may be worth while appearing to be constructive, I think the aps are blustering by using solicitors to spout such nonsense - trying to intimidate you as they have always done. They cannot place any conditions on contact with ds who is an adult and I'm not sure they can place those particular conditions (subjects which must not be discussed) with dd, particularly as the aps have given one side of the story; their behaviour in seeking to have their cake and eat it (they can tell their version of events but you aren't allowed to tell yours), is unreasonable IMO.

Are the solicitors saying they act for ds and dd or the parents, or social services? Not sure they can act for ds/dd as well as the aps, presumably one could argue that there is a conflict of interest over the interests of the (adult) child and the interests of the adoptive parent (one party has an interest in establishing or maintaining a relationship with their birth parent, the other has an interest in destroying any relationship).

Anyway, I hope you are taking your own legal advice on this (via Snail?).

Hugs

edam · 01/09/2004 10:57

Wonder if SofiaAmes would have any insight into this?

edam · 01/09/2004 11:01

And if the aps are reading, I wonder how they can square their actions in seeking to prevent their adoptive adult children building a relationship with their birth parent with their consciences. As they claim to be Christians, they must be familiar with the Gospels, particularly the call to love your neighbours, even loving your enemies (this may be how they see you, sadly), the teachings on forgiveness, the commandment to honour your father and your mother... I could go on.

Bunglie · 01/09/2004 12:56

I have 'banned' SofiaAmes from looking at the site (jokingly ), because she was getting very upset by what she was reading and a 'Happy Mummy makes a Happy Family'
But I bet she is peeking....Hiya Sofia, have a good holiday and managed to relax?

Lisalisa....You put it in a nutshell in your last sentence!
There is going to be a hearing at the GMC about Meadows and his practices and I believe that a certain firm of solicitors are going to put together a 'class action' but I think it involves more than the 5000+ cases Meadow's gave evidence on, as there is another doctor, Southall, (see the southall thread), who also accused women falsely of having MSbP, but these were not the only two doctors, and I think that soon the truth will be known, but unfortunately mothers like myself have to be very careful what we put as it can be mis-interpreted and we have waited 15 years plus in many cases, it just takes time for it to filter through to those people who can do something as we are 'Gagged' by the courts from speaking out, telling our stories and of course anything that could identify our children. So, forgive me I am not trying to be evasive but it is difficult to put fact here knowing that someone who does not want the truth told to be 'tipped' off. I hope that makes sense.
This does involve thousands of families, but we are all 'gagged' and if you remember back the government held enquiries into Cleveland and the Orkney (satanic abuse cases), when only a few families were involved. Here we have thousands and yet the government have not even held an enquirey or said that they would consider it. If you read back, a lot to ask, you will see that many mothershave written to their MP and Margaret Hodge (minister for children), their is a sample letter there. If you feel you would like to do something then we would be grateful if you emailed your MP, but I don'yt want to tell you what you should write or ask you to do anything you feel uncomfortable about.
One thing that Mumsnet gives us is anonymity, but for those who are in authority and know of my case I am obviously not anonymous, that is why I am being a bit evasive, I am truely sorry, but I am pleased that you have asked your questions and seen the truth of the situation for yourself.

Edam...will email!

lisalisa · 01/09/2004 13:03

Message withdrawn

MummyToSteven · 01/09/2004 13:05

a solicitor raising her head above the parapet here - unfortunately I know very little about family law tho!

Re:your son - agree with edam. Given that he is over 18, I don't see that contact with him is any business of the aps, legally as well as morally, and that "seeking to rewrite the history of the adoption" is far too vague an accusation and doesn't sound like anything the aps can legally prevent you doing.

Re:your daughter. Are the aps getting at allowing you contact over and above that permitted in the original court Order? If they wish to deny you access as per the original Court Order, I would have thought they would have to apply back to the Court to do so - and given that dd is so nearly of age, I wouldn't imagine that a family Court Judge would be particularly keen to have anything to do with this sort of satellite litigation.

take care and hope somebody with a better knowledge of family law/procedure can comment on this

Bunglie · 01/09/2004 14:21

Lisalisa.....there were two reasons given, one was because I have epilepsy, the other wastime.....they said the children had been away for too long to be reunited with us, essentially, to reunite them would take longer than adoption and would be less traumatic for the children.
I had however been seeing them for 6 hours a week, supervised, but this meant nothing. I had lost before I walked into the court because time was against me.

M2STEVEN (Gin I have stopped calling you M27!

Thank you, I thought as much, but I only found out 5 months ago that I did not have an 'open' adoption, as promised by the Judge. The adoption hearing was done in 'secret', without my even being present, as I had a right to be. The AP's now say that they reached an agreement with me and there was no reason for an 'open' adoption and hence I rely on their 'goodwill', which I am never allowed to forget. The agreement I have never been certain of, and I certainly do not have anything in writing. But forgive me, I do not want to discuss too much here, now I know that they are reading it!
But thank you for the advice, always much appreciated.

Bunglie · 01/09/2004 14:22

Ahg...M2Steven that should say 'grin' not 'gin' as in !!

Beetroot · 01/09/2004 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 01/09/2004 15:13

Beety that's fine....please though, KEEP any left over inco sheets!!!
Just had another delivery!
Also I don't want back ANY jug thermos's my Christmas pressie list is full......Jugs all 'round!
For those who don't know, I bid for what I thought was ONE new Jug Thermos flask off e-bay, I got it for £1.20p, the postage and packing was £3, I thought a bit steep, but imagine my surprise when 24 arrived...yes I bid and won 24 of them, hence I let Beety have 12 for her party!

So you see I am a 'Bunglie of very little brain'
However do not be surprised if you get one for Christmas, I use ONE, so that still leaves another 11

Anytime you are free Beety, I will look at my diary and see what it says....clever things talking diaries........

lisalisa · 01/09/2004 15:17

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 01/09/2004 15:47

Lisalisa (do you mind if I just put Lisa?),

You are right, it is awful, but if you read Yvonnes story it was much the same for her.

Unfortunately it is a fact that this has happened in MANY cases, and the Judge's always say, 'we are putting the best interests of the child first'
I wish this was true, how can it have been in my childrens interests to go from seeing me for 6 hours a week, to 2 hours once a month, (twice) and then every 3-4 months. Worse than that they were up-rooted from a foster home, placed with prospective adoptive parents, OVER NIGHT, no chance to say good bye to friends at school, nothing, and be sent 50 miles away and told you will call us Mummy and Daddy! This is your new home and these are our rules. No hugs, no cuddles and kisses at bedtime, but placed away from me and with the explanation 'We have found you a new Mummy and Daddy' until they received letters from the social services, written 15 years ago, based on Meadows evidence telling them that I tried to hurt my dd. I am not allowed to put my side of the story and if I try they will not allow me contact, that is the condition.

Interestingly this ruling occured on The 27th.
(sorry its a bit long), however the important part with relation to me is,

".......Children need to know the truth if the truth could be ascertained"

I have the documents, reports etc. I only want them to know the facts, not 'My' version or the Social Services, but the TRUTH

*Re K (children).
Cite: BLD 3108043769; [2004] EWCA Civ 1181.
Court: Court of Appeal, Civil Division.
Judge: Wall and Neuberger LJJ.
Hearing Date: 27 August 2004.
Representation: Michael Harrison QC and Valerie Sterling for the mother.
Jeremy Posnansky QC and Nicola Saxton for the local authority. Michael
Burdon for the father. Alison Grief for the grandmother. Pamela Lawrence for
the guardian.
Summary: Children Adoption Freeing order Revocation Mother appealing
against freeing order Further evidence Public interest considerations.

The mother and father were married in India in 2001. The mother, who was
aged 18 at the date of the marriage, came to England to live with the father
in his parents household. There were two children of the marriage, A and M.
In January 2003, A was admitted to hospital, where medical staff concluded
that she had suffered non-accidental injuries. The mother alleged that she
did not know how the injuries had been caused. Care proceedings followed and
A was placed with foster parents. In the care proceedings, the judge held
that A had sustained extremely serious non-accidental injuries and had been
shaken on at least two occasions. He concluded that A had been in the
overall care of the mother, the father and the paternal grandmother when
injured and any of them might have been the perpetrator of the injuries. A
care order was made in relation to A and she was freed for adoption. By that
time, M had been born and had been removed from her mother under an interim
care order. The court then made a full care order in relation to M and an
order freeing her for adoption. The mother subsequently left her husband and
took up residence at a refuge. She made statements, alleging that the
grandmother had been violent and cruel towards her and suggesting that the
grandmother had shaken A. She alleged, further, that she had been forced to
swear an oath not to disclose what had been going on in the house. The
mother appealed against the freeing orders made in relation to both children
and sought the replacement of the full care orders by interim care orders
pending a reconsideration of the question of the perpetrator of the injuries
to A.

The mother submitted, inter alia, that the hearing before the judge had been
materially compromised as she had been effectively prevented from giving
evidence in accordance with her wishes due to the influence upon her of the
father s family.

The appeal would be allowed.

It was in the public interest for those who caused serious non-accidental
injuries to children to be identified, wherever such identification was
possible. It was paradigmatic of such cases that the perpetrator denied
responsibility and that those close to or emotionally engaged with the
perpetrator likewise denied any knowledge of how the injuries occurred. Any
process which encouraged or facilitated frankness was accordingly to be
welcomed in principle. Moreover, it was in the public interest that
children, as they grew to adulthood, had the right to know the truth about
who injured them when they were children, and why. Children who were removed
from their parents as a result of non-accidental injuries had to come to
terms with the fact that one or both of their parents injured them. In
principle, children needed to know the truth if the truth could be
ascertained.

On the facts of the case, justice required the question of perpetration to
be revisited. The position to which the judge had been driven was manifestly
unsatisfactory. It would have required very powerful considerations to leave
that unsatisfactory state of affairs untouched if there was a realistic
basis upon which it might be rectified.

Accordingly, having regard to the circumstances of the case, the orders
freeing both children for adoption would be set aside and the children would
be made the subject of interim care orders in favour of the local authority.
The question of the identity of the perpetrator of the non-accidental
injuries to A would be remitted to a judge at first instance for further
investigation and reconsideration.

aloha · 01/09/2004 16:02

Hi Bunglie, just to add that I also believe the solicitors are trying it on with you. The APs cannot tell you what you can discuss with another adult. They know they are wrong and are desperate but this is ridiculous behaviour. I feel so sorry for your son and daughter to have such dreadful adoptive parents and to have missed the chance to have you as their mother. Sorry I couldn't make the rally. It was my stepdaughter's 13th birthday and we went shopping! Keep strong.

suedonim · 01/09/2004 16:27

Here's another article in support of wronged parents by James le Fanu.

Swipe left for the next trending thread