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'MSbP, Lost Mothers 3'

356 replies

kalex · 22/07/2004 20:24

A new thread for Bunglie, Cheeseball, Spudbrain and Postsue.

With my love and best wishes to them all.

God I sound like a greeting card

OP posts:
Bunglie · 13/09/2004 14:11

Sofia....

Thanks for those articles, really interesting, did you say they came from an American magazine? Do you know how old they are? Sorry don't mean to question you when you have a 'poorly tummy' and have gone to the trouble of giving them to me.

Are you feeling better yet?
I am feeling OK now, after my midnight feast, and I only got told off at the doctor's because my legs were a bit swollen and he suspected I had not been using my wheelchair?? But all is well.

Bunglie · 13/09/2004 19:36

I have had no luck, searching most of the day, but to be honest I don't understand it....
I think I shall telephone a couple of solicitors, anon. and ask them but I am not optimistic. All I can findis that ALL documents should be kept for 6 years and what a solicitor should do if they destroy documents that they should not have, as they are the clients property...however even the definition of 'clients property' is confusing, it seems if I give something to a solicitor, for their use it then becomes their property....that can't be right......I must have over done it today!

GOODNEWS...Spuddy just phoned and said all is well and Cheeseball is going to get a reconditioned laptop cheap! so hopefully she can post soon.

IKNT-I need to email you, sorry I meant to do it this weekend but got my 'nose caught in a pot of ice-cream'....email is coming I promise...give me a couple of days and I will have caught up with myself!

Good news by the way...only 16 snails this morning, I think the wind put them off...I must be winning at something!

MummyToSteven · 13/09/2004 20:24

hi bunglie, have tried google and found nothing myself will go to the court library tomorrow and see if family textbooks have anything useful. Glad that Spuddy and Cheeseball are doing OK, and hopefully will be back online soon.

aloha · 13/09/2004 20:31

Oh Bunglie, I wish I knew what to advise. I can't imagine not seeing my boy for all that time
I think they are afraid of you - they know they adopted him under false pretences (though obviously innocently because they didn't know the allegations against you were lies) and they are afraid that once he realises this he will turn against them and reject them. They are acting so badly out of sheer fear, but ironically, their actions will, IMO, make that rejection more, not less, likely in the future. What a horrible mess.
Did you see Helena Kennedy's recommendation re child deaths/injury no longer to be presumed to be abuse/Munchausens, but that is not to be the very last resort when all else has been ruled out? Also stuff in the Standard today about more cases of 'child murder' (probably SIDS) to be reopened? I think finally lessons are being learned.

aloha · 13/09/2004 20:32

That is 'now' to be last resort, I mean.

edam · 13/09/2004 21:28

Bunglie, can't believe how hard it is for you to get an answer to this question! I know a couple of solicitors, neither of them in family law, unfortunately, but will ask them to dig too ? can't hurt to have more people looking.

About your son and the aps; who knows what their reasons are. But my guess would be that they feel threatened by the truth and are determined to suppress it at all costs. It's a terrible shame, because the intelligent response would be to put these two young people first and say 'what a terrible situation, how can we help these adult children come to terms with it'?
Logically there's no reason why the aps should be so defensive; social services must have painted them a certain picture of your children's background and they acted on that belief. But they aren't behaving very logically. They seem determined to keep you in your box marked 'baddie' so they can justify the way they have acted over the years. All terribly sad and really not helpful for the children they should be putting first.

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 10:31

Edam - I think you have hit the 'nail on the head' along with Aloha. I can think of no other reason, but I will not give up on my children and their right to know the truth, It is with your support that I know what I am doing is right, otherwise I would probably doubt myself, think 'yes' they are right etc etc, but you have no reason to believe me, yet you do believe that I have a right to have a relationship with my children. What happened has happened, I can't give them back the years , nor can anyone give me back my children, but they CAN give me back two adults, with 'open' minds, ready to hear the truth and judge for themselves if they wanted to, but they are as you say frightened. I know that they are reading this, and I want them to know that they will always be 'their' children as well, but I gave birth to them, I loved them and I cared for them in the best way that I knew how. This was obviously not good enough, but please do not punish my children or prevent them from knowing the truth. Lies are destructive, They (the AP's) think I am a liar...I can do nothing about that, but I can tell fact from fiction and I will not ever give up on either of my children. I am thankful to the AP's for giving them a home, but now let them grow up and find the truth, they asked me, and I would not say, because I told them to speak to you (the AP's), but if they ask me again I will tell them what they want to know. But the most important thing is that they should know that I have always loved them, I would never do anything to hurt either of them and I will always be here. I have told my ds that, when my dd is 18 I will tell her also. I believe that very soon the 'truth will out', and if the AP's still want to be part of their lives then they should not make them choose. They should let them decide for themselves, but they have two sets of parents, and that in my eyes makes them very lucky people, if only these two sets of parents could agree that the 'children' come first, not my needs, not theirs, but what the children have lost, and so badly need answers to is the most important thing at the moment, so I will not go away, I will not be threatened by solicitors letters, I will 'Stand and Fight' for the truth to come out and for the right for them to know it. I do not want to apportion blame, and I will not blame anyone for past wrongs except for the 'system' that allowed this to happen. I can say no more to reassure them, but if they will not except it, then it is them (the AP's) who are causing the confussion and division in the 'childrens' minds. I can do nothing but ask them to meet with me, and they have replied with 'threats' so I will continue and not be intimidated and trust that the 'children' will seek out the truth and ask, when that time comes I hope that I shall have got to know them as adults and we can discuss this, with the facts, and I am so sorry that this may lead to hurt of someone else, I feel that there has been enough hurt, so why create more? We should be working together for the 'children's' welfare and future good, but what is it they say...'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'.

The recent ruling made on 27th August 2004 in the Court of Appeal, Civil division. Judge Neuberger and Wall LJJ, Ruled the following in allowing an appeal from a mother, overturning a freeing order for adoption;

"..........Children who were removed from their parents as a result of non-accidental injuries had to come to terms with the fact that one or both of their parents injured them. In principle, children needed to know the truth if the truth could be ascertained."

The important part being that, " In principle, children needed to know the truth if the truth could be ascertained"

All I wish to do is let the children know the truth, not my truth, or the Social Services truth, but the documented, unadulterated truth. What harm can this do except help to answer their questions, and put the reasons why they were adopted in perspective for them.

This ruling I think is important because it states that a child has the right to know the truth, where the truth can be ascertained.....I have the truth, documented, so If and when I get to know my children they can judge for themselves, what is their right, not what the AP's want them to know, but the TRUTH.

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 10:37

M27 (sorry you are and always will be an M27!)
If I could 'hug' you I would...so I am sending you a virtual 'hug'. However, if the weather is as bad where you live as it is here, PLEASE, do not go out just on my behalf.....I could not bare to think that you were putting yourself out like this, in such awful weather just for me.....although I really do thank you from the bottom of my heart....you are a very special person, but then I think that MNers are as a whole.
Where else can you post a problem, and know that someone, somewhere, who you do not know, will help you....? (Even if it is eat your B&J's).

MeanBean · 14/09/2004 10:39

Bunglie, how interesting that of both their sets of parents, only one appears to be interested in putting their needs first.

That's what good parents do - they put the needs of their children first. And the need to know the truth is such a primal, basic one. If your children's AP's haven't understood that, then it's something quite basic about parenthood that they haven't grasped.

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 10:39

OOh! Anyone, (calling LunarSea!), have a link to what Helena Kennedy has said?
I always respected Helena Kennedy, (not just because she refused to prosecute me), but because I think she is a woman who talks a lot of sense.

aloha · 14/09/2004 10:41

Good for you Bunglie. You honestly couldn't be fairer or more generous. As a stepmother, I know it is perfectly possible for a child to be happy and love and feel loved in two homes, in two families. Your children are practically adults. If they were only supported and told the truth, I'm sure the same could happen for you and for them, but sadly, you have only met with aggression, threats and lies. That's so sad.

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 11:41

Sofia, the article, 'The Bad Mother', about MSbP, you gave to me, you might be interested to know that on the MAMA site, the family involved in the interview of that article have posted there......It seems that they can't get a copy of it in the UK, and it was published in the 'New Yorker' does that sound right? Well I feel very priviledged to have read it! Thank you.

Oh - do you want me to post them back to you, I did not copy them and give them back? Sorry! , but I will if you like??

LunarSea · 14/09/2004 14:45

Bunglie, the full Helena Kennedy report is here

Also interesting reading... an interview with Helena Kennedy, covering this area, from The Scotsman , and an interview with Angela Cannings from the New Statesman

LunarSea · 14/09/2004 15:09

From yesterday's Independent :

Up to 40 child-killing convictions in doubt
By Robert Verkaik, Legal Affairs Correspondent
13 September 2004

Up to 40 women jailed for killing their babies could have their convictions overturned after a government review cast doubt on their sentences.

Almost 300 convictions of murder and manslaughter of babies under two years of age over the past 10 years were examined, and the review - prompted by the Angela Cannings verdict - found that the convictions of one in seven mothers were questionable.

The numbers are much higher than expected and lawyers believe that, had the review had a wider remit, many other women would also have grounds to appeal against their convictions.

Mrs Cannings was cleared in the Court of Appeal in December 2003 of killing her two sons because her conviction was founded on conflicting expert medical evidence. The review, led by the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, was set up to examine other cases where experts disagreed.

Lord Goldsmith has now written to 24 solicitors inviting them to refer their clients' cases to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. At least 14 further cases are being recommended for appeal after government lawyers found that their convictions were founded on conflicting expert medical evidence.

A spokeswoman for Lord Goldsmith said: "We have written to the solicitors for the defendants saying that there may be grounds for appeal." But she said that it was up to each defendant to decide whether they wanted to go back to court.

Only a small proportion of the mothers considered suitable for appeal include defendants who are still in prison. Many of them may decide that there is nothing to be gained from going back to the courts to reopen their cases.

The Attorney General's spokeswoman said the names of the mothers contacted would remain confidential. "It is up to them to put their names in the public domain," she said.

But defence lawyers said yesterday that the review's narrow terms of reference meant that many other defendants were being denied the chance of an appeal.

After the critical judgment in the case of Mrs Cannings, the Attorney General said that only cases in which there was "serious disagreement between distinguished and reputable experts" would be recommended for appeal.

John Batt, a member of the defence team who successfully campaigned for the release of Sally Clark, cleared in January 2003 of murdering her two sons, said: "So many people involved in the prosecution of Sally Clark got so many things wrong. The truth is that the doctors and prosecution generally just drove a coach and horses through what anyone would think was a fair trial, which is why I believe the number of wrongful convictions is much more than one in seven." He added: "The Sally Clark case was simply indicative of the laxity of approach in these cases."

Before Mrs Cannings' appeal, the cases of Mrs Clark and the pharmacist Trupti Patel, acquitted of the murder of her three babies, had already highlighted the uncertainties faced by experts in determining the cause of death when babies die suddenly.

Evidence from one prosecution expert, the retired paediatrician Professor Sir Roy Meadow, was a key factor in each case. Known for espousing the controversial rule of thumb that "unless proven otherwise, one cot death is tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder", he proved a compelling witness in each case.

But in the Cannings judgement Lord Justice Judge said that although the court recognised that three sudden infant deaths in one family was "very rare or very rare indeed", the fact that they occurred did "not identify, let alone prescribe, the deliberate infliction of harm as the cause of death".

Last week an 18-month inquiry by the Royal College of Pathologists and the Royal College of Paediatrics recommended sweeping changes to the investigation of sudden infant deaths to protect children and prevent parents from being wrongly accused of murder.

The report said that every cot death should be fully investigated and greater scrutiny introduced of expert witnesses in court cases.

Without naming any individual paediatrician, the report said: "Those regularly involved in child abuse can find it hard to be dispassionate and indeed sometimes become hawkish." It said witnesses have sometimes relied on "medical belief" rather than scientific evidence and that the adversarial nature of the legal system has pushed them into being over-confident of their conclusions.

"It is also important that the courtroom is not ... used by doctors to fly their personal kites or push a theory from the far end of the medical spectrum."

The report said that judges should order a pre-trial hearing to establish areas of agreement and disagreement between expert witnesses so that a judgment can be made of whether the case should proceed to court. Any expert giving evidence should have recent clinical experience and peer-reviewed research and should not go outside their area of expertise, it says.

Mr Batt, author of Stolen Innocence, about Sally Clark, hoped that the Attorney General would consider widening the review so that cot death convictions based on a single expert's testimony would be referred to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

===
Also, the Angela Cannings case is to be dramatised by the BBC

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 17:00

WOW! Lunarsea I don't know how you do it, but you keep me in bedtime reading all week!

The Helena Kennedy report is 78 pages long.....I shall save that for later...

I am really glad that some cases have now been granted leave to appeal....But to say a woman may not want to because she is already 'free'and not in custody and would rather leave it 'behind her', I think is incorrect. Take poor Postsue, she only pleaded guilty to keep her dd, but would do anything to clear her name. I think if I had a conviction, unfairly for murder or manslaughter against my name, especially of a child I gave birth to, loved and then had die, I know I would want to clear my name...It is a stigma that must stay with you for life. I understand the bit about how some people may wish to 'let things lie' but to be honest I doubt that any mother, falsely accused will. I am glad for them, but I agree the 'remit' should have been wider. I have been refused the right of review by the social services because 'My case does not fall within the remit' To be honest again, I think that they need to take their glasses off and look at things more clearly as their lenses are obviously 'tinted'! My case for example falls right in the middle, although at the end, which is quite correct, but I would not wish to have my case reviewed knowing that their were women in prison because of 'these men'. I am glad for those mothers who have been convicted and now have a chance to clear their names, but still not one case in the civil courts.....
What about the mothers who had their children taken at birth, no conviction, but also no child. I guess what I am saying is what about people like Spuddy and Cheesy, I can imagine if I were them I would feel VERY angry, but I guess I am glad that Cheesy does not have access to a computer at the moment, because to loose your baby, as soon as you had given birth, purely because you had a previous child die from SIDS, but were never convicted of anything, but it was done on the 'Balance of Probabilities' in the civil court, they have no redress, and yet I feel that they are almost in as bad a position as those women who were convicted...am I making sense?
Awe! This Bunglie does not know what to think...I need to digest it a bit more and read the report. Thank you Lunarsea for the links. I really feel for some of the mothers, especially some we have 'got to know' on this site, but I guess my hopes were aimed too high, but in time with a bit more 'nudgeing' perhaps the 'Walls of Jericho' will come tumbleing down.

Did any of you know that there is an online petition here There are not many signatures and I am not saying which one is mine! But I would ask you to look at it?

mummytosteven · 14/09/2004 17:38

Hi Bunglie. I agree with you that people would want to clear their names both for the principle of it - and also a conviction makes it difficult for people to obtain jobs in the caring professions - IKNT had to give up her job, for example. I think the most likely reason people wouldn't wish to pursue this would be destroyed faith in the system/lawyers or quite simply being too mentally exhausted/lacking the support for another battle with the "authorities".

With regard to your question about the solicitors papers - I have made it out to the library in a dry spell but with a remarkable lack of result - all I could find was a book suggesting that I look at the Law Society Gazette, from January 1971, p31 for an article on what documents solicitors should keep, and for how long. Unfortunately the library didn't stock the Law Society Gazette. I think that rather than looking for info on wardship, a google would be in relation to client papers/file retention periods in general.

Bunglie · 14/09/2004 18:16

M27, THANK YOU,
I did try and google something like that yesterday, but got myself mixed up with what belongs to who!! When I added 'Wardship' to it, it kept telling me to look at something to do with Pakistan!!

Thank you again, so much, I will try again tomorrow...you are wonderful! have a virtual tub of Ben and Jerries [_] (It's cookie dough flavour!)

Bunglie · 15/09/2004 10:51

M27 - I have 'googled'
It seems that the Law Sciety Gazette is only available online from 8th Jan 1986.....I am still 'googleing' but seem to be going around in circles! But will keep trying!!
How sure are you of your reference to the Jan 1971, page 31 ??? What I mean is, is it worth me quoting that to the Woman at the Law Society??

mummytosteven · 15/09/2004 20:46

Bunglie - the problem with that article reference is that the article might not say anything useful about wardship papers so I don't think that there is much point quoting it to the Law Soc - tho maybe somebody at the Law Soc could send you a copy of that article to read? or if anyone on here has access to a legal library - LunarSea???

Bunglie · 17/09/2004 10:07

M27 - Thank you again.

Ooh! It's a horrible day, no sun....no B & J 's and I have some polyanthus to plant in my garden, but I am being invaded by slugs and snails.......now I know they don't have MSbP,(but thought if you did not know the answer I might have to start a new thread!!) but is it true is you crush eggshells and put them around your plants that stops the 'wee beasties' (YUK!) from eating them? I do have (Bird friendly slug pellets, but they like them...it seems to attract them and they don't die quickly and still eat my plants....so I want to STOP them before they start....Come MNers....Do I have to start a new thread or can you help this poor 'Snail obsessed Bunglie'?

Bunglie · 21/09/2004 11:18

Calling LunarSea! Or anyone who can do a link for me please?

I have heard that Alan Beith was interviewed this morning on Radio 4's Today Programme and he has announced an inquiry into the 'Family Courts System' Is that right? Anyone know any more?
Thank you
Bunglie

JanH · 21/09/2004 11:21

Bunglie, it was yesterday apparently - here - 0712.

Bunglie · 21/09/2004 11:25

Thanks Janh,
I will listen now.....trust me to be a day behind the news? I even set my radio alarm so it was tuned into Radio4....Still missed it!

LunarSea · 21/09/2004 12:48

Also a written report here

Bunglie · 21/09/2004 13:28

Thanks Lunarsea...will read it now
I am not sure what this inquirey is about in particular or general or what its objectives are so thank you and will read with interest.