What do people think is most likely to happen with the irish/UK Border Part 2.

[cathyclown]

OK I took it upon myself in my arrogance. Nah, just enjoyed all the views whether we agreed or not, it has been very interesting.

So carry on folks. Link below to the original thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/a3096781-What-do-people-think-is-most-likely-to-happen-with-the-Irish-UK-border?msgid=73760649#73760649

I think the reason some of us appear to be reactive is that we've been wracking our brains for a solution for so long, and no matter what way we look at it, no matter what concessions might be made, or decisions followed, or agreements mooted, we can't see a single way this can work without barriers to travel either at the land border or at a sea border.

It's profoundly depressing to look at it this way (hence the tongue in cheek alcohol references and other attempts at raising the mood), but no matter how I look at it, chaos seems inevitable

I don't think chaos is inevitable.

But it might happen. That would depend on the outcome of talks/agreement.

There a some people in NI who are just a kick away from a riot, and always were. Both sides.

Who would want to jeopardise all the progress made up to now, and for what end?

But there we are.

Who would want to jeopardise all the progress? Um, the British government? As that’s what they have done, are doing and seem likely to continue to do. We are in this shitstorm because of an internal Tory feud and their fear of losing votes to UKIP.

Anything that happens In NI now is down to them.

Maryz - I disagree with you on the issue of the importance of the Irish Language Act in the NI Assembly.

What SF (and I suspect SDLP voters and many Alliance voters) wanted was a gesture of good faith from the DUP. Willingness to admit the place of the Irish language in the NI community at large was important because it would have indicated a willingness to engage with the interests of the whole community and not just their own. It would have indicated DUP embrace of not just the letter but the spirit of the GFA. This gesture of good faith was not forthcoming.

Littlegrey

The DUP is a big factor here too let us not forget. SF have been very silent too, and I don't have any time for them for that either.

Just an aside,

But what ever happened to the Ash for Cash scandal.

Seems to have to have disappeared now, for shame.

It’s still being investigated. Arlene is trying her damndest to pretend it’s not happening. Maybe this whole mess will help bury it, like previous messes buried Red Sky and Mrs Robinson’s embarrassing predicament.

I know the parties here are a factor, but the reason this whole thing is an issue is Brexit. Cameron (buttock with eyes), Gove (reptilian bastard), Johnson (mortifying oaf) et al and their “rich boys play “Risk” with real people” twattery.

All so unnecessary when you think about it.

UK seems to think their post colonial hubris will win out. Well let us see.

I fail to see the benefit of UK leaving the EU, I think it was a knee jerk reaction to DC and his Tory spat.

And where is the instigator of all this now? 24 hours later he exited stage left and doesn't give a shit.

Tragedy in the making if things kick off in NI again. But many UK voters thought NI was Ireland and had nothing to do with their own country.

Hubris, arrogance, or ignorance. I ask you all now.

Reading this thread you would be forgiven for thinking Norther Ireland voted 99% to 1% for remaining not 56 to 44%.

This means a 12% victory margin in a very sparsely populated region of 1.7 million people out of 65 million people living in the UK.

I have lots of family connections to Northern Ireland, so i fully get all the implications of Brexit . The potential of a hard border causing implications on trade, families crossing the border and potentially making an Irishman a foreigner in his own country.

However, to present the whole of Northern Ireland as 'remain' is wholly inaccurate .

Secondly understand a population of 1.7 million cannot hold the other 63 million people responsible for their problems.

Twitter is full of nasty anti Irish comments such as this beaut:
"Oh bring back Cromwell,he understood how to deal with the Irish."
Cromwell massacred an estimated 600,000 Irish

I saw that, Kofa. Godfrey somebody tweeted it?

And so it begins.

So unnecessary but there we are.

Godfrey Davey, that’s who it is. Gawd love him. If you look at the second picture, the poor hen isn’t too bright. Some truly special applications of (what I assume is) his first language.

Who would want to jeopardise all the progress made up to now, and for what end?

The GFA has been in tatters since the agreement with the Tories was signed.

The DUP never liked the GFA from the outset. They are still opposed to power sharing in NI.

A big thanks to Theresa May (and almost all previous Westminster governments since the 1890s) for enabling the delusion that they don't have to participate constructively in politics.

Kofa as far as I'm aware the 600,000 figure includes hunger and bubonic plague deaths as well deaths due to warfare.

(I'm a 17th century historian and I thought the figure seemed high for warfare deaths alone so I had a quick check)

Littegrey, imagine if he had put something similar about black people - maybe a "bring back slavery" post or something. He'd be slated for it, but because it's about Irish it's ok

mountford, I put some figures on the last thread. Firstly, NI had almost the lowest turnout, with only 2/3rds of the electorate voting, and of those over 55% voted to remain. So overall, only 28% of the electorate actively voted to leave. I suspect most of those were Unionists.

My figures might be wrong, but I think about 40% of the electorate of NI (at most about 350,000 voters) support the Unionists, in other words about 7% of the 46.5 million UK electorate are holding up Brexit. No wonder the British government doesn't give a shite about them.

Wrt the Twitter comments and the fora Maryz has been lurking on - Brexit has done a fine job of revealing the nastiness that lurks under the rocks.

Mountford, the margin for Remain in NI was a heck of a lot higher than the margin for Leave in the UK as a whole. And yet Brexit is going ahead, with the most extreme divorce from the EU as much a possibility as if voters had expressly supported this in large numbers.

Secondly understand a population of 1.7 million cannot hold the other 63 million people responsible for their problems.
The other 63 million people stood idly by while sectarian based apartheid was instituted and enforced in NI from 1921 on. The UK's elected representatives in Westminster preferred to turn a blind eye to what was done in the name of the Crown for almost a century.

Secondly understand a population of 1.7 million cannot hold the other 63 million people responsible for their problems.

It was Britain who caused the problems in the first place. A long time ago certainly, but if they'd respected Ireland's right to exist without interference all those hundreds of years ago then none of this would be an issue.

Yes indeed, and state sponsored oppression, which was flagrant in NI and ignored.

But universal suffrage including women's suffrage was introduced around the time that the state of NI was set up - the context of the 1921 date being the comment that the other 63 million people in the UK are not responsible for NI's problems.

It’s always apparently OK MaryZ. Remember the whole thread on this very forum (I think in site stuff) where several Irish posters were highlighting concerns about the anti Irish/bigoted/just plain insulting comments on Mumsnet. HQ didn’t think it was a problem though, and basically told us all to shut up. We are just a silly little offshoot of “The British Isles” and should realise that and develop a sense of humour

This, then, is the result. Disrespect and ignorance, a stonking superiority complex and an attitude of “we don’t care” turns into “How fucking dare they?! Upstarts!” whenever it becomes apparent that the rest of Europe don’t dismiss us quite so easily.

Lisette thanks for the clarification. That does make more sense. I read an article about Cromwell last year and the 600,000 figure was in my head. In any case the massacre and destruction of the people of Ireland was one of the most brutal ever. I never learned about this in school.