What do people think is most likely to happen with the irish/UK Border Part 2.

[cathyclown]

OK I took it upon myself in my arrogance. Nah, just enjoyed all the views whether we agreed or not, it has been very interesting.

So carry on folks. Link below to the original thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/a3096781-What-do-people-think-is-most-likely-to-happen-with-the-Irish-UK-border?msgid=73760649#73760649

You signed a contract, you tied all your businesses together, and yes, you do share dependents (the people of the UK who are going to be a heck of a lot poorer according to every independent analysis).

You knew the rules, you agreed to the rules, you had a veto against any rule you didn't like, but you still want to renege on every agreement and walk away. And your negotiators aren't even prepared to tell the truth, to look towards the future or to take any responsibility for the mess.

Very like a divorce. You want to walk out, but blame the person left behind.

are happy to tell themselves lies to suit their own poorly thought out position Touché, and it seems your describing yourself.

You signed a contract, you tied all your businesses together
And now we have ended our contract, we are separating our businesses, it happens all he time. The terms have become burdensome and we seek better terms else where. We are following the rules, we aren't reneging on any deals. Its not our role to be a punching bag to stop other countries following our lead. I am sorry the EU are being exposed for what they really are but we are not mafia enforcers, we want out.

You want to walk out, but blame the person left behind
We have no obligation to stay in an unhappy marriage, I dont 'blame' the other person but they are the reason why we want to leave. Its abusive to force people to stay in an unhappy marriage.

Either May is lying or she is planning to renege on the GFA, for one. The bills you don't want to pay - those are things the UK agreed to at the time various plans were made.

Davis and the rest of the negotiators have been found out for lying. The Brexit campaigners lied (sides of buses, remember?) and are still lying about figures and plans and projections.

Brexiters (see the DM and the rest of the tabloids any day, as well as some mainstream media, Rees-Mogg and most of the pro-Brexit MPs) are happily blaming the EU and Ireland for the delays and the difficulties; it's not anyone's fault but the UK who have decided to walk out (which is fine, they obviously have a right to do so) but are unwilling or unable to sort out their previous promises and commitments, and equally unwilling or unable to be honest about their plans for the future (probably because they don't have any).

What lies am I telling?

Oh my goodness Julie what drivel you post.
Only the club committee got a bit drunk on power and continually kept asking for more and more money to feather their own nests. They invited to many disparate groups into the club. The club committee decided to start dictating a dress code and dictating how people should behave.

• The UK was a full member of the 'committee' with voting and negotiating rights just like all the other members.
• The UK therefore had a say in all decisions made on 'fees' and other financial commitments of the club members, plus greater integration, and lots more.
• The UK pressed the other members of the committee to admit the 'disparate members'. Plenty of other members had misgivings, but the UK would not listen. This is because a member of another club the UK fancied itself a member of - it's actually an imaginary club called 'the special relationship' - managed to persuade the UK to speak on its behalf in the club meetings, and it pressed this other party's case very effectively.

Now (ironically is not the word) the UK may well end up tied to the club by means of a trade agreement but without any voice in decision making in the club. You couldn't make it up.

And then this:
Julie8008 Thu 14-Dec-17 21:35:24
Its nothing like a divorce, we didn't move in together, we didn't open a joint bank account and we didn't have kids
.....
We have no obligation to stay in an unhappy marriage, I dont 'blame' the other person but they are the reason why we want to leave. Its abusive to force people to stay in an unhappy marriage.

Make up your mind.

The EU fighting for what’s in the best interests of it’s member countries is what ‘s supposed to be doing though. It’s not some sign of the EU being some sort of bullying mafia unless you also admit that the U.K. is equally as bad. Because it’s what we’ll be doing to countries weaker than us when we negotiate with them. It’s pretty much how international trade deals work.

The EU stopped needing to consider our needs when we triggered article 50. If we wanted them to fight for us we should have stayed in it.

expecting them to provide conjugal services I think someone has taken the metaphor to far.

Either May is lying or she is planning to renege on the GFA
Maryz, your just making stuff up now (unless you work in the government or can read minds?).

The UK was a full member of the 'committee' with voting and negotiating rights. Agreed but that wasn't the UK people, it was UK politicians. Eventually the UK people got pissed off enough and had their say, where they disagreed with the UK politicians. We should have been allowed to voice our opinion a LONG time ago and then maybe we wouldn't be in this situation.

The EU fighting for what’s in the best interests of it’s member countries No problem with that. And if they want to cut off trading ties with the UK to 'punish' the UK for leaving, then on their heads be it, we will cope just fine with a WTO deal.

Julie, I have explained this many many times, as have others.

May has said that (1) there will not be a hard border in Ireland and (2) NI will have exactly the same travel and customs arrangements as the rest of the UK.

One of these will not be true unless the UK as a whole stays in the customs union and the free trade and free travel areas (something like Norway has).

And either way chunks of the GFA will have to be rewritten to take out references to the EU.

Do you not understand this? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?

As to your suggestion of a WTO deal only - that would be reneging on the GFA, not to mention the fact that the US aren't too keen on the UK's suggestions about such a deal.

But you probably don't read anything about that either.

Maryz, you can say it as many times as you want but it doesn't make your opinion true. The UK will not put up a hard border in Ireland. Which part of that can you not comprehend? Why are you so obsessed in keeping us in the EU against our will? Why are you so obsessed in destroying the GFA when the UK wants to keep it? Sorry but you seem to have your head stuck up an ideological self inflicted EU punishment beating.

That's great. No hard border in Ireland. Where is the hard border between the UK and the EU going to be? There will have to be one to (a) keep out all the immigrants and (b) separate the customs/trade areas.

May wanted to have it, effectively, in the Irish sea. Her understanding seems to be the same as yours, which is why she had to back down so embarrassingly last Monday after "forgetting" to run her proposed agreement past the DUP.

Actually I will simplify my question.

How are you going to keep EU immigrants out of the UK if you have no border checks at the Irish border, and no border checks at the Irish Sea?

Can't believe I'm bothering to post this again, however if we have an open border between RoI and NI, under WTO rules this is considered to be giving most-favoured-nation status to the RoI (and the rest of the EU), and this must be extended to all other trading partners.

Hence we would have to allow every WTO member to dump whatever excess production they have in the UK - cheap Chinese steel, chlorine soaked US chicken, cheap Russian wheat etc etc. Whatever industry we have left would be destroyed within a year.

They invited to many disparate groups into the club.

Very telling part of Julie's metaphor, that.

Very telling part of Julie's metaphor, that.

Why?

I presume this is the usual opaque attempt to imply rabid racism?

The member states are disparate.

With your unconditional love for all things EU, how do you feel about the 'return to Europe's Christian roots' rhetoric being spouted by Poland?
The rise of the far right across many member countries?
The anti-Muslim immigrant rhetoric from many member states?

How are you going to keep EU immigrants out of the UK if you have no border checks at the Irish border, and no border checks at the Irish Sea?

Why is a remainer so desperate to keep EU immigrants out of the UK? Illegal immigrants are hard to keep out, you keep legal immigrants out by telling them no! Its pretty simple.

Its obvious that many remainers want to enforce a hard border so they can point at it and say why do you want that, we should stay in the EU and do what they tell us. No, we aren't going to impose a hard border and we wont give in to hard core remainers who want a hard border.

Julie
"Why is a remainer so desperate to keep EU immigrants out of the UK? Illegal immigrants are hard to keep out, you keep legal immigrants out by telling them no! Its pretty simple."

You realise that Maryz doesn't actually live in the UK, don't you, so can hardly be classed a remainer.

And as to your solution of telling immigrants "no", the question being asked is where do you do that? Where do you turn them away? Where is that border?

Telling them "no" - where?

At a border, like all other countries? Or in some hypothetical non-border crossing point where everyone is checked without being stopped, without showing any paperwork, without being asked any questions?

If you have a way of doing that you should really tell Theresa May, because that's what's causing her so many problems (in case you haven't noticed).

I'm not a hard core remainer by the way, or a remainer at all. I'm an outsider who is baffled at politicians making statements that I, as a complete novice in all matters of international negotiation, can see are complete contradictions.

Or in short: Are you Theresa May? If you are, you should really have a quick chat with Arlene [helpful ]

She can’t be May. Even May isn’t stupid enough to think that we can control immigration by just saying ‘no’ and having no border checks.

I dunno, I'm beginning to wonder [sigh]

Where do you turn them away? Where is that border?
We have a CTA with the ROI and we can return illegal immigrants when they are found in the UK. Its pretty straight forward. An example is that we used to deport homeless Romanians but as a member of the EU that is now illegal and we cant. When we are a sovereign country we will be able to deport homeless EU immigrants without EU interference.

You realise that Maryz doesn't actually live in the UK
Is your point that her arguments are invalid?

the question being asked is where do you do that? Where do you turn them away? Where is that border? I am not allowed into the USA (for example) I dont wait until I get there to find that out, I just dont go there. QED
Once we are able to control EU citizens from coming here we can deport them as soon as they are caught, applying for jobs, houses, health care, benefits etc. Instead of the current situation where they are allowed to come here and we are unable to deport them.

Telling them "no" - where?

So your argument seems to be that we cant be an independent country because there is no way to stop illegal immigrants. If you cant see the stupidity of that argument then you dont deserve to have a vote (in any country).

I too cannot understand the illegal EU immigrants argument.

Currently with FoM eu citizens can come to U.K. to work, and have all the same rights & access to welfare that U.K. citizens do.

If post Brexit U.K. decides that FoM will end (as promised, although nothing is definite until it's definite obviously) then why on earth would eu citizens who have the entire eu to choose from, choose to come to a country where they know they cannot legally work etc?

So you are going to let anyone who wants to come in, come in? Anyone currently living in the EU (both legal and illegal, after all how do you know, you aren't checking any documents) can now come into the UK?

You have no worry about them disappearing into the black market labour market? Or starving on the streets? Or do you intend to round them up on a daily basis and put them on a ferry to France (France will love that), or over the non-existent border into Ireland (where they can presumably just head back in again.

I don't think there is a country in the world that works like this; it's interesting that you think it'll all be fine, they won't bother. And if they do, sure it isn't a problem to round them up and put them in camps and export them?