What do people think is most likely to happen with the irish/UK Border Part 2.

[cathyclown]

OK I took it upon myself in my arrogance. Nah, just enjoyed all the views whether we agreed or not, it has been very interesting.

So carry on folks. Link below to the original thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/a3096781-What-do-people-think-is-most-likely-to-happen-with-the-Irish-UK-border?msgid=73760649#73760649

Sometimes I think I've heard it all and then another Tory opens there mouth!

twitter.com/colmtobin/status/938931806161784833

That's pretty spectacular, in fairness.

I see the tweet that Iarnróid Éireann have banned him. Arf.

their

He said the same the other way round too, straight after!

I watched it, and went 😮 when he said 'Ireland has been so disruptive for the British' - and then he said straight after 'and UK has been disruptive in Ireland too' so my shocked face faded immediately.

Bit of a fuss over nothing really tbh

There isn't much comparison though really Faith. I think the fact that he followed with the vice versa makes it worse, like they were equally bad to eachother

MrsDustyBusty,

That's hilarious if he has been banned from Irish Rail. The irony. But I guess it is in jest.

I really thought he had more brains than that. And I love his great train journeys too. Sigh....

"In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation"

This leaves the question wide open. Interpretations will differ. Haggling will take years. Farmers will go bust. Tensions will rise. Polarisation will continue.

Who or what is to be the arbitrator of disputes, and what is the court of final appeal if there is disagreement on solutions or differences as to the impact of any proposed solutions on the GFA?

NI as a peaceful political entity is now precariously perched on a very narrow and slick tightrope. The spirit of the GFA has been mortally wounded.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42291191
Mr Gove, one of the cabinet's leading Brexiteers, said the primary agreement between the two sides had "set the scene for phase two" negotiations - where issues such as trade will be discussed.

But he said that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" at the end of the process.

After a two-year transition period, the UK would be able to pass laws with "full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union," he added.

And the British people would "be in control" to make the government change direction if they were unhappy, he said.

"By the time of the next election, EU law and any new treaty with the EU will cease to have primacy or direct effect in UK law," said Mr Gove.

"If the British people dislike the arrangement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge."

Gove weighs in, and on the basis of this, I predict a general election in Ireland in the coming year.

Gove is stating reality here - and with no reference to the GFA. Either he is reassuring hardline Leavers, or he is threatening soft Brexiteers. In any case, nothing is settled, and in fact, it is possible that all elections from now on will be fought on the issue of the relationship with the EU.

This is why the GFA amendment that never got voted on was so important. The only thing that can save NI from having the proverbial hard Brexit axe hanging over its head ad infinitum is a border poll in favour of reunification

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42298971

I’m confused.

If this agreement wasn’t binding and we can just choose to ignore it what was the point in the last week. Or the last few months tbh. And did we bother to tell the EU/DUP that Before we announced it on TV?

m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/you-irish-need-to-get-over-yourselves-sky-news-host-responds-after-controversial-interview-with-simon-coveney-36394432.html

Seriously though Adams Bolton from sky basically said the Irish government caused a kerfuffle over Brexit and then because he was pulled over his comment came out with 'some of ye Irish need to get over yourselves ' Colonism is never dead with this attitude😟

It's horrible and it builds a resentment that we have been learning to let go of over the last 20 years.

Gosh yes, how dare the Irish stand up for their own interests. The cheek of them.

They should bow down to the commands of their colonial masters. Like the good old days.

Rafa, it's a saving face exercise as far as I can see - May has just agreed to agree with anything she has to in order to "move on".

That article is shocking - but no longer surprising. The general ignorance of much of the mainstream British media is getting a tad tiresome . Coveney's comments are good there:

"Mr Coveney said: "One of those issues is the assurance that there will not be a hard border on the island. Another is that we will protect the Good Friday Agreement, another is that we will protect peace funding. Another is that we will protect what is called the Common Travel Area between Ireland and Britain so that people will be able to move between both countries and live,work, study and access social welfare entitlements, health care and so on.
"All of those things are really important, they are part of normal life and the relationship between our two islands, which is a complex one but a deeply woven one between Irish and British people. We wanted some guarantees and assurances in phase one before we move onto phase two, so that we can settle some of the concerns that people have and I think we have achieved that."

He's pretty much summed up everything we've been saying here (and most people have been saying from the beginning) - the trouble is that May and the British government don't want to commit to anything at all. I believe that's because they have no idea whether they will be able to keep to such a commitment; they have no fucking idea what's down the road

Rafa, I don't think you are the only one confused. David Davies hasn't a fecking clue.

The entire last week was an exercise in avoidance of any decision making. So the British government has essentially done nothing, but promised that if they decide to do anything everyone else can object to them doing whatever it is they decide to do.

I think.

Sadly Adam Bolton’s comments are typical of what I’ve been hearing in the UK over the past few weeks. From ‘your lot are causing trouble’ to ‘what’s all the fuss about Ireland’ to ‘don’t we own Ireland’

I was wondering if the reason I was confused was because the government have no idea what they are doing and are equally confused.

If they weren’t attempting to hold their party together by trying to appeal to everyone it might be a bit easier. Or if they had somebody who was halfway competent.

I’ve taken to getting my news from RTE. It’s much easier to work out what might be going on. The fact that my very pro- hard Brexit colleague who can’t stand all the EU ‘meddling’ and red tape asked if I’d seen the brilliant news about the deal on Friday says everything about the UK media IMO.

Combination of lack of Irish history on the curriculum and the sort of jingoistic Britain is great that led to Brexit is largely responsible for that, JustHope.

Yes, I don't get that everyone is hailing a "deal".

The "deal" seems to be that there isn't a deal but that the UK government have agreed to not make any deal before checking if such a potential deal is ok with everyone else.

[baffled]

Or there might be a deal that agrees to regulatory alignment with the EU unless all 27 EU countries and the non-exist at NI government say we can do something else. And we have to pay a divorce bill except we don’t if we don’t want to. And even if we did we wouldn’t have to because we could have an election and the new government don’t have to follow the deal that may or may not exist.

But it’s all fine because we have a plan based on excruciatingly detailed studies that also may or may not exist.

It’s like Schroedinger’s Brexit.

A letter in today's Irish News.

High profile nationalists appeal to Leo Varadkar not to abandon the North
www.irishnews.com/news/2017/12/11/news/high-profile-nationalists-appeal-to-leo-varadkar-not-to-abandon-the-north-1207290/

11 December, 2017 01:00

OPEN LETTER TO TAOISEACH LEO VARADKAR

A Thaoisigh, a chara,

WE are writing this letter to you as Irish citizens living in the north of Ireland to express our frustration and growing concern over the deepening nature of the ongoing political crises in the north.

We are committed to human rights and cherish our Irish cultural traditions and our Irish national identity, as do hundreds of thousands of others living in this part of our country.

We value equality for all citizens yet continue to be denied rights afforded to all others living on these islands.

We fully endorse the recent call from human rights groups and others on this island for no regression on rights and equality and respect for the principle of equivalence.

In 1998 the overwhelming population of the country voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement.

In recent years we have observed a concerted undermining of the political institutions established under the Good Friday Agreement and a laissez-faire approach being adopted by the two governments as co-guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement.

We believe that the current crisis has come about fundamentally due to a failure to both implement & defend the Good Friday and St Andrew's Agreements.

The result has been a denial and refusal of equality, rights and respect towards the section of the community to which we belong, as well as everyone living here.

The impending reality of Brexit now threatens to reinforce partition on this island and revisit a sense of abandonment as experienced by our parents and grandparents.

The fact that a majority of voters in the north of Ireland voted to remain within the EU must not be ignored.

Against the stated will of a majority of voters in the north, and notwithstanding recent announcements, Brexit pushes us all into unchartered territory, with huge uncertainty for business and the economy, and continuing doubts about what this will mean in reality for Irish and European citizens living in this region.

We, our children and grandchildren should not be forced out of the EU against our democratic will.

All of this is offensive and unacceptable to us and many others.

Despite the British government's co-equal and internationally binding responsibility for overseeing the Peace Process with the Irish government, we have no confidence in its commitment to do so with impartiality or objectivity.

This is most recently instanced in the British Government's refusal to move on legacy inquest rights. The Conservative Party's political pact with the DUP has now become a grave threat to political progress.

We appeal urgently to you taoiseach, and to the Irish government, to reassure us of your commitment to stand for equality and a human rights based society and your determination to secure and protect the rights of all citizens in the north of Ireland.

Academia

Prof Bill Rolston, Antrim

Prof Patricia Lundy, Antrim

Prof Mark McGovern, Derry

Dr Michael Pierse, Antrim

Prof Phil Scraton, Antrim

Prof Colin Harvey, Derry

An Ghaeilge

Aisling NÍ Labhraí, Antrim

Dr Feargal Mac Ionnrachtaigh, Antrim

Dr Antaine Ó Donnaile, Armagh

Ciarán Ó Pronntaigh, Antrim

Ciarain Mac Cearáin, Derry

Ciarán Mac Giolla Bhéin, Antrim

Niall Ó Catháin, Derry

Éilís Ní Chaiside, Derry

Dr Pádraig Ó Tiarnaigh, Down

Arts

Michele Devlin, Down

Eibhlin Ní Dhochartaigh, Derry

Conor Caldwell, Antrim

Rónan Bennett, Antrim

Dr Brian Ferran, Antrim

Ray Giffen, Down

John McSherry, Antrim

Eamonn Murray, Antrim

Barry Kerr, Antrim

Tony Devlin, Antrim

Terry George, Down

Pearse Elliott, Antrim

Seamie O’Neill, Antrim

Oorlagh George, Down

JB Vallely, Armagh

Donal O’Connor, Down

Malachi Cush, Tyrone

Business

James Conlon, Tyrone

Ciarán Mackel, Down

Eamon Blaney, Down

Christine Jones, Down

Stephen Thompson, Antrim

Shaun McElhinney, Derry

Seamus Ó hAodha, Down

Johnny Kelly, Tyrone

Brian McGirr, Tyrone

Chris Conwell, Fermanagh

Eamon Fitzpatrick, Fermanagh

Gerry Hicks, Fermanagh

Martin Carey, Fermanagh

Mary Connolly, Fermanagh

Sheamus Cosgrove, Fermanagh

Thomas McAloon, Fermanagh

Patrick Magee, Antrim

Ciaran McCavana, Antrim

Dougie Adams, Antrim

Peter Curistan, Antrim

Jane Adams, Antrim

Sean Napier, Antrim

Brian O’Neill, Derry

John McGowan, Derry

Gareth Creaney, Antrim

Frank Cullen, Antrim

Gerard de Brún, Antrim

Rosemary McKenna, Antrim

Andy McCallin, Antrim

Jim Conlon, Antrim

Peter Quinn, Fermanagh

Seamus McMullan, Antrim

Tony Shivers, Antrim

Dominic Kearns, Antrim

Cathal McAteer, Antrim

James Thornton, Antrim

Leo Carey, Antrim

Gerry O’Reilly, Armagh

Bernard Boyle, Armagh

Anthony Havern, Armagh

Pat McCorley, Antrim

James Toal, Antrim

Charlie Keenan, Antrim

Thomas McStocker, Antrim

Jim Clinton, Antrim

Gerry Carlile, Antrim

Damien Brown, Derry

Kieran Kennedy, Tyrone

Community

Fr Joe McVeigh, Fermanagh

Aodhán Harkin, Tyrone

Joe Duffy, Armagh

Ciarán Mac Airt, Antrim

Marie Quiery, Down

Annie Armstrong, Antrim

Harry Connolly, Antrim

Kevin Gamble, Antrim

Pilib Ó Ruanaí, Down

Seamus de Leaduis, Fermanagh

Oliver McCaffrey, Fermanagh

Frank Liddy, Antrim

Conal McDevitt, Derry

Alison O Neill, Antrim

John Kelly, Derry

Conal McFeely, Derry

Seamas Heaney, Derry

Ciara Ferguson, Derry

Davy Cunningham, Down

Conor Murray, Derry

Michelle Kelly, Antrim

Elizabeth McStocker, Antrim

Peter Bunting, Down

Andrée Murphy, Antrim

Mark Thompson, Antrim

Clara Reilly, Antrim

Fr Gary Donegan, Fermanagh

Eugene Reavey, Armagh

Gerard Rice, Antrim

Damien Lindsay, Antrim

Angela Hegarty, Derry

Paul O’Connor, Derry

Tish Holland, Antrim

Education

Bernard O’Connor, Fermanagh

Lorette Gleeson, Fermanagh

Seamus Ó Tuama, Antrim

Mairead Ní Chonghaile, Antrim

Gearoid MacRoibeaird, Antrim

Marie McBride, Antrim

Caireann Uí Mhuireagáin, Antrim

Liam Ó Flannagáin, Derry

Padraig Mac an tSaoir, Antrim

Máire Darragh, Antrim

Health

Dr Peter Murphy, Antrim

Dr John McSparran, Antrim

Dr Brendan McDonald, Tyrone

Law

Pat Fahy, Tyrone

Peter Madden, Antrim

Padraig Ó Muirigh, Antrim

Adrian O Kane, Tyrone

Michael Fahy, Tyrone

Des Fahy BL, Tyrone

Colin Gervin BL, Tyrone

Frank McManus, Fermanagh

Anna McHugh BL, Tyrone

Ciaran Toner, Antrim

Michael Crawford, Antrim

Niall Murphy, Antrim

John Finucane, Antrim

Caitlin Bunting, Antrim

Rosie Kinnear, Antrim

Eamon McLaughlin, Antrim

Sean G Doherty BL, Derry

Darragh Mackin, Antrim

Martin Durkan, Down

Paul Foster BL, Derry

Blaine Nugent BL, Tyrone

Michelle McDonnell, Tyrone

Sinead Larkin, Armagh

Ciaran Roddy BL, Derry

Brian G McCartney QC SC, Antrim

Patricia Coyle, Derry

Claire McKeegan, Antrim

Peter Corrigan, Tyrone

Katie Dowling, Antrim

Marie Hans, Tyrone

Neil Fox BL, Antrim

Pearse McDermott, Derry

Paddy McDermott, Derry

Chris McCann, Antrim

John Keown, Down

Joe McVeigh, Antrim

Kevin Winters, Down

Anna Nugent, Down

Paul Pierce, Antrim

Sean Pol Begley, Tyrone

Media

Maria McCourt, Antrim

Patricia McBride, Derry

Brian Feeney, Antrim

Colm Dore, Antrim

Dr Jude Collins, Antrim

Martin Shannon, Fermanagh

Robin Livingstone, Antrim

Barry McCaffrey, Antrim

Sonia Nic Giolla Easpaig, Derry

Sports

Peter Canavan, Tyrone

Tommy Shaw, Antrim

Kieran McKeever, Derry

Tony Scullion, Derry

Paddy Bradley, Derry

Ciaran McLaughlin, Tyrone

Conor Gormley, Tyrone

Eamon Lindsay, Tyrone

John Lynch, Tyrone

Paddy Cunningham, Antrim

Patrick McBride, Antrim

Ronan McNamee, Tyrone

Neil McManus, Antrim

Terence ‘Sambo’ McNaughton, Antrim

Tommy Quinn, Antrim

Gary “Pappy” O’Kane, Antrim

Gregory O’Kane, Antrim

Mark Carey, Antrim

Ross Carr, Down

Conor Laverty, Down

Chrissy McKaigue, Derry

Kevin Madden, Antrim

James McClean, Derry

Michael McCann, Antrim

Justin Crozier, Antrim

Cathy Rooney, Antrim

Paddy Barnes, Antrim

Michael Conlan, Antrim

Jamie Conlan, Antrim

Aoife Ní Chasaide, Derry

Shannon Lynch, Tyrone

Benny Tierney, Armagh

Enda McNulty, Armagh

Paddy Bradley, Derry

Ciaran McKeever, Armagh

Danny Hughes, Down

Joe Kernan, Armagh

The ‘deal’ is smoke and mirrors, nothing is binding. The UK media are portraying it as some sort of victory for leave but without studying the details or questioning what it means. Sometimes it seems that the Irish are the only ones asking tough questions, bothering about details and the effects of this on all of us.

I'm quite proud of how Ireland has handled these negotiations. Both Leo Varadker and Simon Coveney have been level headed and haven't risen to deliberate goading from some (British) journalists. They know what they're talking about unlike the majority of British politicians.

I see David Davis had to explain himself today about the comments he made on Sunday when he said the border agreement was not legally binding. He retracted his comment after the Irish government sent a warning to him. He now saying of course it's legal. Seriously....

David Davis is a very unintelligent man. I doubt that he's particularly aware of his own limitations, whereas everyone dealing with him presumably is.

Way to negotiate.