What do people think is most likely to happen with the irish/UK Border Part 2.

[cathyclown]

OK I took it upon myself in my arrogance. Nah, just enjoyed all the views whether we agreed or not, it has been very interesting.

So carry on folks. Link below to the original thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/a3096781-What-do-people-think-is-most-likely-to-happen-with-the-Irish-UK-border?msgid=73760649#73760649

Was I rude and hostile? I thought I asked you a question that you were refusing to answer - can you come up with a solution acceptable to May and to Foster? Because if you can you should tell them, they obviously can't.

Also, what Ifailed said - either there is freedom of movement or there isn't. If Britain is happy with freedom of movement, that's great, they can stay in the customs area, the free trade area, everything. Except they don't want to. They have made that absolutely clear.

Switzerland is in Schengen (free movement from all EU countries). Switzerland is also in EFTA. The UK will be in neither. They will be the equivalent of Bosnia from your very helpful link.

The Schengen agreement was signed in 1985. The UK refused to sign up because they wanted to retain some border control. Ireland didn't sign because of pressure from the UK to keep the Ireland/NI border open while working towards what is now the GFA.

If there is a hard Brexit, I suspect Ireland might join Schengen.

Are you really saying Britain doesn't care who comes in? Why are they putting pressure on the French to man the borders in Calais then? Why not just open it all up and let anyone come in who likes? Why is Britain so keen on controlling the borders?

These are genuine questions; no-one seems willing to answer them.

A technical proposal has been made, I've no idea what it was [neither do you] and I can't give details of what it might be, thus I'm avoiding your question? Interesting logic...

Neither UK nor RoI are to blame for this border dispute. This is all pretty devious of the EU. It is them trying to pry more money out of the UK.

Have the British people ever said they wanted to close their borders?

This article is quite interesting and explains a little about the difference between Schengen, the CTA and a free labour market (as currently in the EU).

The CTA and Schengen don't have a right to a free labour market. The CTA will be of no use to anyone if the land border issue can't be sorted out, because the UK will still need a hard border between itself and every EU country (to stop the movement of EU citizens in).

The alternative is allowing open borders everywhere, and then trying to control in influx of illegal immigrants at the point of employment/housing etc. This is, of course, possible, but it's a scary thought that immigrants might be allowed in, but then not fed/housed/whatever once they arrive.

1. The basic premise of the Leave campaign was “taking back control” of UK borders.

1. If you’d RTFT you’d know I had mentioned earlier that even Brexit Bulldog David Davies has admitted that the technology to allow for a seamless customs regime between ROI / UK hasn’t been invented.

If you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion bossytits maybe you should come back when you are better informed.

How is the EU being devious?

They came up with a suggestion. It looked as though the UK was going to agree, but the DUP scuppered that. May hasn't come up with any suggestions at all.

Are you saying that British people are happy to have open borders, with free movement of people in and out from everywhere? Or even from just the EU? If that's the case, great.

I think you'll find it isn't the case though.

Ending FOM is not the same thing as closing borders. No country [as I'm aware of] outside the EU allows FOM.

It's not just the DUP that scuppered it though.

It's remainers, Leavers, NI, Scottish, Welsh & London representatives.

Basically every possible side of Brexit within the U.K. rejected that solution.

The EU & Ireland were the ones who wanted that solution, no one else.

It is being devious because it is making so much of a fuss about this particular border when it doesn't give a damn about its Southern and Eastern ones?

Why are we so much more of a threat all of a sudden?

Ok, an open border but no freedom of movement. I presume you mean passport checks at the "open" border? Between Ireland and NI or between NI and mainland UK? Or are you suggesting Ireland should stop the people the UK doesn't want at the Ireland/rest of EU borders?

yy Faith, I was speaking in shorthand. The list of people who scuppered that idea is very, very long. The trouble is, if the alternative (a land border) is proposed, the list of people objecting will be even longer.

I don't know the solution. I don't believe anyone has one. Which is why I get a bit annoyed with latecomers arriving, not bothering the RTFT, bitchplopping an "easy solution" and fucking off again without answering any questions

"It doesn't give a damn about its Southern and Eastern ones" - did you read your own article about the queues in and out of Bosnia?

Some of the comments on this thread from leavers are perfect examples of why we are in this mess. ffs millions of people being fucked over by people who can't be bothered to arm themselves even with basic information before voting.

I'm so fucking cross and getting crosser with each day that goes by.

Sorry to rant.

"It doesn't give a damn about its Southern and Eastern ones"

Whether it does, or doesn’t, those borders are not subject to the Good Friday Agreement.

Thegirl, it's painful, isn't it?

My only hope is that this chaos and delayed realisation of the impossibility of the situation finally pushes us toward a more sensible single market solution, if we MUST Brexit at all.

Yes, I know I have relatives in Bosnia. The UK is very warm and welcoming to genuine foreign refugees. I benefited from that generosity in 1993 . Not wanting FOm is a perfectly reasonable aspiration for any people, in my opinion. People must be allowed to protect their identity in reasonable ways, or things will blow up in the long run and they will be much more violent and hideous as a result..

Britain is right to wish to leave the expansionist EU, which is not making the same fuss about its other borders..

UK and Irish governments have already indicated they want to continue the CTA.

There’s no issue here as far as I can see. At this stage the negotiation is not trying to find a complete solution to the Irish border anyway, only policy declaration. The detailed solution can come later

The Eu has been terrible toward Ireland in the past and it is now pretending to be its best friend . Yes it is being very devious. The EU believes this Irish issue is a good one to pressure with because it look stronger. This is the Good Friday Agreement. This is terrorism. These are important issues of peace. This is not just scrounging around for more money for the EU, which is what it really is.

I've been lurking on these threads and reading all your comments.

I really do applaud all of you trying to to make the Martina/Julie/Bossytits of this world understand. You're doing a fantastic job 👏 I suspect many people will never bother to understand the full implications of whatever deal May (not May?) manages to strike but hopefully there will be a few more informed people thanks to your efforts.

People must be allowed to protect their identity

What do you mean “people must be allowed to protect their identity”. I live in NI, I’m identify as Irish, I have an Irish passport - my right to this is enshrined in the GFA. The “detailed solution” can’t wait until later - that’s the whole point. It is also enshrined in the GFA that those who identify as British have the same rights to UK passport. These are two polar but parallel views. This isn’t an abstract conversation or a complicated A level question, these are people’s lives and identities that are being bandied about again. These conversation were had, worries and fears were expressed during the Brexit campaign, when the DUP were feted as kingmakers after the last General Election again fears were expressed about the Brexit negotiations - we were dismissed as wanting details too early, panicking over nothing, almost wishing ourselves back to violence. We were patronised, dismissed and ignored - no real shocker there tbh. So no details can’t wait because NI has suffered enough because no one had a plan, didn’t think beyond their own political expediency.

implantsandadyson

You’ve nailed it. The peace we have now was very hard won. I despair that people are so glib about the difficulties Brexit presents to people’s lives, businesses and futures.

The fact is THERE IS NO SOLUTION to the Brexit v Good Friday conundrum. Something is going to have to give. It would appear that the Conservative government will place self-preservation above EVERYTHING else, even if that jeopardises peace, the economy and the quality of life for Irish, British and EU citizens who live in the UK.

I am so angry.