What do people think is most likely to happen with the Irish/UK border?

[coffeclub]

What is the most likely solution?

Why does it stop Irish people/goods doing anything? Surely by having Irish passports then they get the benefit of free movement throughout the EU. Why would you want a hard border with the UK when there hasn't been one for 20+ years? Surely it wouldn't benefit anyone to reinstate it. Perhaps I expressed it too simply but was trying to suggest a solultion where nothing would change except for Britain leaving the EU (which I don't agree with anyway). I meant that Ireland would still have all the EU rights.

This is a mess and I certainly didn't vote for it. But throwing around terms like "offensive imperialism" is why British people don't want to engage with this. I am a staunch remainer, a complete Irophile and someone who regularly travels to Ireland and NI. No-one can engage in the debate because some people are so bound up in Irish/British history and we just need to move on with the situation we have now and stop arguing about what our forbears did - over which none of us have any control!

This seems to sum up the up-to-date position: "To date, the British government has produced no detailed plan on how to address the border question." It includes another suggestion: "Tory MEP Charles Tannock yesterday suggested Northern Ireland should have a referendum to decide if it remains in the EU's customs union and single market", which I suspect the DUP will veto.

I've just heard May being interviewed and again she's just waffling along about "moving on".

berlioz, please read something, anything about this. If you can't be arsed to RTFT (and I know it's long), just read the link in my latest post.

Obviously Ireland doesn't want a hard border - but it can't be avoided if Britain doesn't come up with an alternative (and so far they have rejected every alternative offered to them, without coming up with a single suggestion of their own).

The suggestion that Ireland should just suck it up and rejoin the UK is "offensive imperialism". Any suggestion that "the UK has made this decision, Ireland should just go with them" is offensive; it's treating Ireland as though it is still part of the UK - which is bound to make people defensive, don't you think?

How do you suggest "we just move on and stop arguing"? Do you have a solution you could perhaps pass on to the British government?

My googling also brought up this article - showing the lack of knowledge on the issue (I think it might have been linked before, but I hadn't watched the video).

This was in RTÉ this morning.

"Essentially Dublin wants a form of words that will guarantee no divergence in the rules governing the single market and customs on either side of the border, and that nothing will inhibit the way cross-border cooperation - enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement - is implemented

A senior EU source has insisted that was technically possible, but politically fraught, given the opposition of the DUP.

So the form of words will have to be robust enough to reassure Ireland that it is not taking a leap in the dark, but non-specific enough to allow Mrs May to reassure not just the DUP, but also hardline Conservative MPs, that the union between Britain and Northern Ireland was not being undermined.

It will be an excruciatingly delicate task, but the senior EU source insisted the support of the other EU26 for Ireland was unwavering"

www.rte.ie/amp/923881/

It'd be great if they could pull it off (and even greater if Scotland could do the same thing )

"technically possible, but politically fraught, given the opposition of the DUP" - that sounds like the previous "special exemption for NI to stay in the customs union" - which the DUP and British government have rejected out of hand.

Your last sentence - back to Hadrian's Wall again

There seems to have been a totally bizarre assumption from brexiteers that Ireland would just follow them out of the EU. Which is indicative of just how little they understood about the country.

ROI have very ambivalent feelings towards the UK (800 years of struggle and all that) and extremely positive feelings towards the EU (last poll showed 83% in favour).

They were never going to leave the EU or compromise their interests there in any way, that was a complete fairytale.

But part of the wider brexiteer assumption that other countries would just fall into line with what they wanted, rather than have interests of their own to protect.

back to Hadrian's Wall again

I think the English may have something to say about that as Hadrian's wall is well south of the border

But why let a bit of geographical (or historical) fact stand in the way of a simplistic solution?

Perhaps I expressed it too simply but was trying to suggest a solultion where nothing would change except for Britain leaving the EU (which I don't agree with anyway). I meant that Ireland would still have all the EU rights

Oh lord. It's not Britain leaving the EU, its the UK. Ireland obviously still has all the EU rights, since we are still in the EU. Are you utterly confused or are you seriously suggesting that NI becomes part of Ireland as if that is some simplistic solution and not something that thousands of people died over?

Are people this naive?

This piece by Tony Connelly Irish journo is clear and worth reading to help really understand what is at stake.
www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1117/920981-long-read-brexit/

It really is going to get even more nasty, Ian Paisley Jr has now come out to say that the UK should punish Ireland in their fisheries deals for their disgraceful behaviour in the border talks. In another article he states Ireland would be better off if we left the EU and that we could do a lot more together!! My God he seems to be playing good cop bad cop all by himself.

There does seem to be this idea that Ireland has somehow done something to the UK, and that we are being difficult by not doing their job and working out how to deal with the border.

The arrogance and belligerence because they flounced from the party and expected people to trot out after them and no-one did is crazy. Ireland loves the EU, the idea that we would leave with the UK was never something that should have occurred to anyone. It really is that old colonial attitude coming out.....

Maryz Volunteer for your Hadrian's Wall rebuilding work party, reporting for duty. Not too worried where it goes exactly, shall just feel better doing something, anything.

Martina have you really not understood the position of the DUP on the approach you keep suggesting and their role in the Westminster government? Without their votes, the current Westminster government do not have a majority, so one way or another, they really get a pretty decisive say.

It is, indeed, democracy at its finest.

Very fast moving thread...I've been reading all morning and still not caught up to today

so the only prob is goods between NI and ROI, that's easy to solve, just leave things as they are

OK, then, since that only works if we all stay in the EU, let's not leave after all. That works for me, just with a few more people had understood this before voting.

Having read a few more posts, I come to the conclusion that some advocate something like 'queue up here, if you have a UK or Irish passport, walk through here, no checks will be made'. If you don't, and if you are not UK or Irish and want to enter our beautiful country please queue here patiently. How many people would join the queue rather than walk through unchecked?

At least camps wouldn't build up, like in Calais , because there would be little stopping the people. Bonus times for anyone with a boat and some capability to navigate in the dark.

eyestightshut At last, a sensible, workable solution, a Shrödingers Cat border, now we are getting somewhere

Maryz indeed, DUP may be If I was an Ulster Unionist I'd be feeling very isolated and abandoned around about now. I expect they are somewhat consoled by the way the Westminster government depends on their votes in order to have a majority. It does just get worse...

Interesting article Kofa thank you.

DH has seen some suggestion today (he's not sure how reliable) that the UK proposition is to devolve all regulatory decisions to Stormont, so effectively the Assembly would decide how closely NI is aligned with both the EU and the UK.

Sounds like a bit of a disaster to me, knowing how volatile Stormont is, even when there is actually a government.

the Assembly would decide how closely NI is aligned with both the EU and the UK

Ni is part of the UK, it can't be aligned with it or not, it is it. And they can't decide to be aligned or not with the EU, since they won't be in the EU, and they will be in the UK, which is not.
Devolution wouldn't make the slightest difference to any of that.

tinysparklyshoes - it means that NI could choose whether to align, say, agricultural regs with GB and have tariff free trade with GB and a border with ROI, or align with the EU and have a border with GB.

I understand that NI already has some different agricultural regs compared to the rest of the UK, to ease movement of livestock etc across the border. I'm no agricultural expert though!

I don't need a lesson on what country NI is part of, I'm typing this in Belfast. My terminology above is correct in this (bonkers) instance.

I think it's a ridiculous suggestion as there's no way a sensible decision would be reached across all parties (and it would surely be one of the few appropriate uses of the petition of concern!), let alone that decision remaining in place over the long term.

No it doesn't though, unless you have an independent NI, not a devolved one.
NI as part of the Uk, devolved or not, cannot decide who to have a border with based on their own needs.

NI as part of the Uk, devolved or not, cannot decide who to have a border with based on their own needs.

I agree with you on this, but apparently that is indeed the suggestion. Although, again, I have no idea how reputable it is. I suppose it's in line with self determination, but it would be an utter disaster IMO. But, again, could all be bollocks anyway.

There are a lot of suggestions but most of them are unworkable, that one being more unworkable than most as it is completely impossible for about ten different reasons!

The idea of the Assembly deciding anything is (sadly) laughable.

They can't agree on anything.

Young Ian Paisley really is a chip off the old block.

The assembly decide anything 😂😂😂

The only people who have let NI down more than the British government are its own sorry, self-serving politicians. Why has the Alliance party not performed better or some other new cross-community party not been created since the GFA?

I left almost twenty years ago and I would say that the communities have become more polarised rather than less given who they are voting for. Baby dinosaur is, thankfully, a pale imitation of his father. I saw a clip today where his father compared himself to Martin Luther.......

Aligning the interests of the British government brexiteers, the DUP, Sinn Fein and the ROI government on this issue - all in keeping with the EU laws and the GFA feels like the most fiendishly difficult conundrum of our time.

There may be a solution. But I'd say that it would take the same kind of input that the GFA took; years of negotiations, full attention of clever, committed people.

The British government hadn't got that. Or even realises at this point that it's necessary.