What do people think is most likely to happen with the Irish/UK border?

[coffeclub]

What is the most likely solution?

Ok, let me explain this very simply. At the moment there is no border between Ireland and NI because both countries are in the EU and therefore in the common travel area.

The UK, on entering the EU, entered the customs union and the common travel area and signed up to all the agreements that entailed. They also signed up to the GFA, which included discussion on border issues. They are now leaving the EU, leaving the common travel area, and negating some of the GFA. By doing so they are causing a problem.

Having decided to do this (which is their right, no-one as saying it isn't), surely it isn't unreasonable to expect them to suggest a solution. As it is, the UK government have made no suggestion at all (if they have, please link it, because I haven't seen it). All they appear to be doing is whinging that it's all someone else's fault.

Of course it's the UK's responsibility! They are the ones who have chosen not to be part of the single market. The thread is full of explanations as to why you can't choose to leave a single trading bloc and not have a border between yourself and it.

@Numbsnet I'm in the Republic of Ireland too and I agree with you completely. To be honest I think most people do.

Sorry single market trading bloc.

Yes they probably do lorelairoryemily, despite all the nationalistic pub songs and rhetoric.

Haven't RTFT, but this shouldn't be news. The Irish situation was explained clearly before the referendum. The Leavers just brushed it aside with all the other problems.
Now it's come back to bite. How long before the terrorists come out from hiding?

Having decided to do this (which is their right, no-one as saying it isn't), surely it isn't unreasonable to expect them to suggest a solution. As it is, the UK government have made no suggestion at all (if they have, please link it, because I haven't seen it). All they appear to be doing is whinging that it's all someone else's fault.

dialogues are two way, right? I see nothing from the EU either.

The EU's position is certainly understandable. But it's also the case that they alone are insisting on a border when the other two parties don't want one. God isn't saying there needs to be a border, and neither is Ireland or the UK. It's the EU.

there are smooth non-borders between non-EU and EU countries as people have mentioned.

This is a huge mess, and possibly one of the reasons you don't want to be in a union with a huge inflexible mess of 27 nations. It's mainly England that voted to leave. But somehow this is hampered because this creates a border (not at their insistence) between two OTHER nations (both on the island of Ireland)?

OK habanero; not sure how God came into it; Ireland recognises there will need to be a border; Northern Ireland is not a separate nation, that's kind of the whole point.

I agree though, that this vote was driven by England, some of whom talk about our new global future while apparently not remembering anything that happened in the past which might make that a bit tricky. If we can't even negotiate effectively with our EU colleagues with whom we have been in a shared enterprise for over 40 years, it doesn't look very good.

there are smooth non-borders between non-EU and EU countries as people have mentioned

There really aren't - I'd be interested to see an example?

God isn't saying there needs to be a border, and neither is Ireland or the UK

I'm really confused - I though the whole point of Brexit was.to regain our sovereignty and control our own borders - but now we don't want one?

is there anything to be said for another mass?

habenero20, the EU and Ireland have made suggestions - for example, the UK could stay in the customs area/free travel area or that Northern Ireland alone could stay in the customs/travel area with the hard border being in the Irish sea. Both these were shot down by the UK government (with no alternative offered).

I have no idea why people are convinced the UK doesn't want any borders, by the way. In fact lots of Brexiteers would be horified by the idea of "no borders = free travel".

Where are the EU/non-EU smooth borders? I've never seen one.

Finally, can I quietly suggest that you don't refer to Northern Ireland as an "OTHER nation" . You do realise it isn't a nation on its own? Technically it isn't and has never been a country, even. It's actually part of the UK.

Not something I thought I'd ever have to explain, but the level of ignorance here is shocking.

Wasn’t it the case that when David Davies was asked by a select committee what was the technology that would allow for a UK-EU ‘frictionless’ border he conceded it hadn’t been invented yet....

it's funny to blame the UK for this. The UK didn't "cause" this. There was a referendum and the people want out. As a country with self determination, sure that is our right.

Funnier to try and make out that the UK isn't to blame and didn't cause this issue.

It is the EU insisting on a border there. Not Ireland and not the UK. Yet it's somehow the UK's responsibility.

Well, yes, of course it's the UK's responsibility, it is the UK that is changing things. Honest to goodness, this sort of response to the subject of the impact on NI/RoI of Brexit just illustrates why something as huge as this should never, ever have gone to a referendum- or at least if there was to be one, it should have been after an extended period of thorough education. It's clear that most people don't even understand what the issues are, let alone come up with reasonable responses to them.

"A border between two other nations"
God help us. Do you have any idea that this is a border between YOUR nation - the U.K. - and another nation.
On the other side, we have articles in the Telegraph talking about this border being "an internal" matter. An international border with another sovereign nation - and the EU - an internal matter!
The ignorance is absolutely astounding.

Yep, "internal matter" reminds me of how some UK governments referred to the "Troubles". As though "the Irish" were fighting among themselves for all these years, and were asking the UK to act as some sort of neutral referee [baffled]

I can sort of understand some of the general population not realising that NI and Ireland are not the same country, but when the press and government officials don't seem to realise it's a bit of a worry.

I also question the wisdom of having something so important put to a referendum. At least in Ireland if we vote the "wrong way" the government gets its act together, explains the reasoning, the pros and cons, opens up a discussion and lets us have another shot at it. I know some people don't like that, but we could vote the same way the second time, if we wanted to; we haven't so far .

I think most Brexiters are terrified of having a re-run of the referendum, because they know they would lose by a landslide.

To be fair to hanenero wrt the 'two other nations' comment - she's been slightly misquoted & misunderstood.

She specified England (rather than UK) and therefore 2 other nations makes sense in that context (Ireland & NI).

I do see how it's easily misconstrued though, obviously.

I voted remain and am very worried about this question of Ireland and many other issues.

But I do think some of the blame attaches to some of the EU commissioners and leaders who were either utterly uninspiring or downright difficult. They insisted on peddling a federal Europe, which most of the remainers do not want.

However before calling the referendum DC failed to lobby successfully within the EU and/or build up strategic partnerships with other member states that might have given him more leverage on issues such as federalisation and immigration. We are going to end up laying a huge divorce bill. For what?

No Brexitteer I know gives a shit about Ireland

Blunt but true in my experience as well.

To be fair, I only know 4 (that have admitted to it, anyway), but they didn't expect it to be any problem, as 'it's only Ireland.'

The reality of the history, the potential problems and how on earth it might all be resolved just didn't occur to them.

What a bloody mess.

there are smooth non-borders between non-EU and EU countries as people have mentioned.

There aren't. They all involve armed guards and/or customs posts. I'd also love to hear about these countries that don't have any borders or agreements about freedom of movement. The EU didn't invent borders you know. And it is Ireland that has been pushing for the EU's intervention on this because we have known since way before the results that it was going to be a clusterfuck.

In fact, Ireland probably did more preparation for Brexit that the UK govt. This dates from March this year. No idea if it is any use, but at least it's a bit of preparation.
www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/News/PressReleases/2017-Press-Releases/Enterprise-Ireland-launches-Brexit-SME-Scorecard-to-help-companies-self-assess-readiness-for-Brexit.html

I think another mass might be as helpful as waiting for ideas from Dexeu.

Faith, NI isn't a nation. It's not even a country. So she may well have being giving the generic "English" view of things (as in the UK = England) but she is still astoundingly wrong. Do you think she would have referred to Wales as "another nation"?

Abra1d, there is no doubt Cameron cocked up, but we are where we are now, and I assume the UK will leave; having said that surely the UK should come up with some suggestions as to how it will happen.

They seem to have been kicking the ball down the road for most of this year; now I think they are realising that they are fucked, quite honestly. I think if it wasn't for the Unionist vote in the HoC, they'd have thrown NI to the wolves already (possibly with an Irish Sea border). Since they are hamstrung by the Unionists, they don't know what to do.

Why did the past governments or any other countries governments sign up to the EU block without a plan for a orderly way of leaving the block, what would have happened if Spain or Italy wanted to leave with there adjoining borders

It’s a big fat mess, I agree, Mary.

Exactly what is happening now.

Only one would hope that the Spanish or Italian government would put some thought into their borders before announcing they were leaving [cynical]

Good point, User. Where was the prenup?