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Original poster

I think anyone who voted Labour in the last election is complicit in murder

440 replies

Aloha · 13/04/2007 20:44

Because you knew Tony Blair lied and lied and lied to get us into that war, and now children are being killed every day, and bodies are piling up in the streets. I think he is the most vile, wicked and contemptible man in Britain. How can he sleep at night? I feel so ashamed he is our prime minister.

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:10

the solution was not to invade in the way that we did for the reasons that we did speedy.

i remember having huge arguments on here about this a couple of years back and all of the people arguing til they were blue in the face that there were in fact WMDs and therefore justification seem to have disappeared.

the solution now is to get out. to put the UN in. to hand all of the billions of dollars worth of contracts back to the iraqui govt for them to dole out in their own interests rather than those of the US.

it's not rocket science.

Mercy · 13/04/2007 22:10

And is there anyone else (apart from me) who know any Iraqis?

The very few I know think it was inevitable, however unacceptable the present situation is. They lived there, under Saddam's regime, we didn't.

bozza · 13/04/2007 22:11

harpsi do you think that a lot of us perhaps cling to the idea of the UN as an international force because without it what are we left with?

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:11

harpsi for shame. the UN is only as good as it's member states and the blair and bush administrations have utterly shafted it.

jeez

PeachyChocolateEClair · 13/04/2007 22:12

beated. doh, you know what I mean

Original poster
Aloha · 13/04/2007 22:12

Yes...where are all those people who were so vehement about WMD?
As for those who talk about hindsight, actually it was bloody obvious the 'reasons' for war were lies before the last election.

OP posts:
yellowrose · 13/04/2007 22:12

sorry harpsi, i won't do a compare and contrast between Hitler, Saddam and the Taliban - it's a waste of time

Yes, Saddam did murder thousands, not just Iraqi's, but also Kurds, Iranians and Kuwaitis - we helped him when he invaded Iran (which was/is too anti-West for our liking) but went to war against him when he invaded Kuwait (a pro-West friend) - how fecking cynical is that ?

What I meant was that we IGNORED the fact that Saddam murdered when it was politically convenient to do so, so one has to look to see why it was so necessary to get rid of him when a) he had no connection to 9/11 b)he had no WMD c) he had been so severely weakned by sanctions (YES, sanctions DID work) that he couldn't even be bothered to invade his neighbours any more d) he was being heavily monitored through the UN, i.e. no-fly zone over the Kurds, etc which effectively meant he could do nothing

you have to be very politically naive to believe that Iraq was invaded to HELP the Iraqi people

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:12

bozza what we are left with is terrorism. state enacted not just sponsored terrorism

we have not a leg to stand on against al quaida.

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:12

bozza what we are left with is terrorism. state enacted not just sponsored terrorism

we have not a leg to stand on against al quaida.

PeachyChocolateEClair · 13/04/2007 22:13

er yes Merci I posted I knew one

who also says the same as your friends

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:14

yellowrose i can't believe ANYONE really believed that at the time of the last election.

blood on their hands.

SenoraPostrophe · 13/04/2007 22:14

mercy - the Iraqis you klnow presumably don't live in Iraq any more? the ones who (for whatever reason) hated the regime enough to leave their homeland aren't necessarily representative.

and as I say, I do agree that saddam was a bastard, but what precedents were there for a foreign power imposing democracy? what fuckwit thought bombing the cities would be a good way of bringing peace?

Original poster
Aloha · 13/04/2007 22:14

I bet they don't scrape a living in Iraq.

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hatwoman · 13/04/2007 22:14

Aloha, a lot of what you say is true, but what do you mean by "complicit"? surely there is an issue of degree - it's not black and white. are we complicit in the deaths caused by climate change if we don;t turn our heating down to 20? what about failing to turn it down to 19? or off altogether? were our grandparents complicit in Dresden if they voted for Churchill? or did the fact that they had genuine - and well-founded - fear make that different? there is also the issue of what you mean by "murder". International law is markedly bizarre on this - the war itself was undoubtedly unlawful - but strangely enough the laws of armed conflict make it possible to have a "lawful" killing in an "unlawful" war. It is also sadly true that not every death of a civilian, of a child, is necessarily unlawful. It's enough to drive you to pacifism. but then you remember Kosovo. Or maybe you are pacifist? (unlike everyone else here, I don;t know who you are...)

Don't get me wrong, I too think the war was an outrage. and that Blair is a liar. But I am lucky to live in a safe lib-dem seat.

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:15

peachy and mercy. they are expat iraquis right?

asking an expat/exiled community about their country of origin is not a great way of guaging what is happening for those that have lived there through the conflict at all.

i konw a bit about this.

Original poster
Aloha · 13/04/2007 22:15

I supported intervention in Darfur and Kosovo. Totally different - as the results show!

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:16

x'ed posts.

bozza · 13/04/2007 22:16

exactly sophable. and I do agree that blair and bush have shafted the UN, and have thought that right from the beginning of this, and about Bush from when he came to power. But Bush has no interest in the UN, when he can make the decisions himself.

hatwoman · 13/04/2007 22:16

and I have never been more outraged than seeing that human rights dossier waved about in parliament prior to teh invasion. that - more than anything else - made my blood boil.

Original poster
Aloha · 13/04/2007 22:16

Sophable, the more I found out about Vietnam and Cambodia the more horrified I was at the British as well as the US role.

OP posts:
PeachyChocolateEClair · 13/04/2007 22:16

illegal immigrant been here a year, enagaged to a friend

PeachyChocolateEClair · 13/04/2007 22:18

and you're right about bias soph- course you are. But at least they have been there, livd the life- they have a valid right to their ay.

Next door chap knows loads of poelpe in Iraq (he is the Prof of Islam), he never quotes them but is very anti_saddam for all he is anti war. And very anti USA.

Heathcliffscathy · 13/04/2007 22:19

peachy, we could have done it differently.

we really could ahve gone in with a UN mandate.

hatwoman · 13/04/2007 22:20

but what I'm saying is it's not all that easy - it's not so cut and dried. I too, ultimately, think Kosovo was the right thing to do (even though it too was unlawful and its methods did not seem those of a govt committed to "protection"). And I thin Iraq was the wrong thing to do. But that's not the same as saying labour voters were complicit in murder.

PeachyChocolateEClair · 13/04/2007 22:20

but yes Soph! I said that was what I wanted! I AGREE with you!

I didnt want war in Iraq. I said that. I joined the anti war group.

(FWIW The Iraqi I knew? his fiancee showed me his torture svcars )