I think anyone who voted Labour in the last election is complicit in murder

[Aloha]

Because you knew Tony Blair lied and lied and lied to get us into that war, and now children are being killed every day, and bodies are piling up in the streets. I think he is the most vile, wicked and contemptible man in Britain. How can he sleep at night? I feel so ashamed he is our prime minister.

tinker that is very interesting - i didn't vote lib dem in the last election, i voted green, but i have voted lib dem in previous elections to ensure labour/tory didn't win. i certainly won't be voting lib dem this time round. i just don't think they are very clear on a whole host of issues.

i like your posts on this thread yellowrose.

i voted green too. [now will prepare myself for the sptting wrath of DominiConnor...]

ruty - no please don't get dc on this one we will be here for ever and i want a peaceful Sat. - lol

I've just read sophables's post of 22:28:01

I don't agree with that at all. We are supposed to believe that we live in a democratic society, blah blah. It's all nonsense though - hoi polloi are just pawns in the governments plans for the country (whether labour conservative or anything else) and have little say / and or even understanding of even why things happen. We are kept in the dark about many things because it's not in their interests for us to know about them. To think we had the power to stop the war is misguided imo.

i think we could have stopped the war, theoretically, but that it would have depended on such a huge effort of such a large number of people that with today's present lethargy and feeling of helplessness it just wouldn't have happened. Your post electra [and this is not a criticism of you at all] sums up how so many people feel, and it is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy in the end [i feel the same way very often] Our experiences have led to our belief that our opinion does not count and that politicans are corrupt anyway and that there is nothing we can do, and of course politicians take advantage of this.

'peachy - i have also met iraqi's and kurds tortured by saddam's regime and been shown wounds and scars - i have a friend whose iranian cousin got killed when saddam invaded iran - but i still OPPOSED the Iraq invasion - i oppose imperialist invasions harking back to previous centuries when we invaded people whenever it suited us '

Yeah me too. I just answered the question how did they feel about it, as best I could. I might know other Iraqi's- there are a few from Iran nearby and according to the local immigration support people, many Iraqi's who come here claim to be from iran as we help them, but not Iraqi's. Shit, isn't it?

Somehow nobody wants to read that part of my posts but I did, I still get emails from the anti war coalition.

I could have stood up yesterady and been one of Aloha's 'innocents' of murder, but I felt I had to fight as I don't like people hurling such terms around. Clearly Aloha was upset about what she ahd heard alst night, something I missed (exams coming up). But I think that to blame everyone is sad- so many people are in such a dire situation that they can't see beyond the end of their nose when it ocmes to voting (I'm not counting the Xenophobic DM reader types, they choose what to believe imo). But poeple vote on the things that affect them first- housing, jobs, pensions. That's the way it si everywhere: I amcertain anyone in the Middle east would do the same, tis natural.

ruty - imo TB has his own reasons for supporting US "interventions". I certainly don't think they have anything to do with his great admiration for Bush(!) However, even if we had managed to persuade TB not to support the war, it would have gone ahead anyway - not even because of Bush but because of those like Cheney and Rumsfeld who have probably been itching to get back there since the first gulf war and just looking for an excuse.

I do take your point about self-fulfilling prophecy but I find it hard to believe that there is anything we can do about invasions which likely involve corrupt agendas we have no knowledge of.

Haven't read all the thread (sorry Aloha) but I voted Labour last time with a heavy heart and with clothespeg on nose because:

(a) the Tories would undoubtedly have taken us into the same terrible war

(b) I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory

(c) I think the Lib Dems are weedy and ineffectual

(d) Labour have actually done a lot of good things.

I think its unfair to bring it down to that too. Tories would have done exactly the same, don't be fooled. They would have gone to war and done a lot worse than Labour on the domestic front. I don't support the war but you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think it can brought down to as simple a level as that.

Feeling a little guilty, eh, Donnie? Just listen to yourself. Pathetic. Maybe you'd like to tell the suffering people in Iraq how hysterical they are too?

Ok, I know some decent people want to cling on to the hope that the Labour party still has some vestiges of decency itself, and I can understand that, and I knowtaht 99% of politicians lie like they breathe, but this disgusting war was so obviously wrong and illegal and the case for it so clearly a pack of lies long before the last election, and they are still lying and lying about it all, that I cannot imagine how anyone could bring themselves to vote for this opportunistic, bunch led my a man who calls himself a close personal friend to one of the world's most extreme far-right leaders and supporters of torture..

exactly electra.
& I'm with speedymama, harpsicord & mercy.
However upset you are (and I've been pretty upset about many news items), calling people child-murderer-enablers decimates your credibility.

Also (sorry Aloha, this may be offensive) don't see what's so bloody good about not having voted Labour. Whether you did or whether you didn't, the fact is that all these appalliing things are happening. How does it make you feel better, that you didn't vote for Blair? I don't get that.

i do take your point Peachy. I just find it so depressing that TB got in again and had his totally crap leadership affirmed. and it now looks like even voting for domestic policies has back fired. I too cried tears of relief when they got in in 97. the betrayal is very, very disillusioning.

I agree with all of that, ruty.

ruty I think yours was to electra?

What would you do, Aloha? Deny poele free choice? Only give the vote to those whose opinions you, personally, approve of?

There are ways to get things done, frokm where I sit alientaing people with blind accusations isn't the way. Any one of the poeple on here who voted Labour could have been thinking about joining the anti war colaition tomorrow, but hey if that were me I'd be put off now, who'd want to turn up to help and then be yelled at and called a murderer?

Encourage poeple to take action, point out and educate. Bt there is little or nothing to be gained by criticising the past. OK you hate TB. We know that now. I'm not a great fan, though I can see where he has amde inroads too. And frankly as everyone says, labour or Tory- of the two (given they were both pro-war), I'd prefer to still have an NHS / welfare state..... don't think there'd be much of that left under a Tory governement. not something I canprove obv., but hey i worked for the NHS under Tories, thast enough for me.

yes well after years and years of thatcherism it was totally understandable for everyone to be relieved to get them out. the problem is as individuals we are pretty ineffectual when it comes to foreign policy making. i studied international relations for many years (in my youth !!)which has made me quite cynical about a whole host of issues that govts. make decisions on, usually without consulting any of us.

they think that once they are "in" they have carte blanche to do whatever the feck they want, which is exactly what TB has done. once they are voted in they think they have our backing to invade countries. it is immoral and undemocratic, but it is bloody difficult to stop when you have people like TB and GB around who have some phoney fundamnetalist "christian" (i put that in quotation marks because they are the last men on earth I would call christians) agenda that looks like an C11th crusade against the Muslim hoards, not modern day C21st diplomacy.

I think there's a lot to be gained from looking at the past and criticising - that is one of the ways we learn for the future.

well, let's hope won't vote labour then, although the alternatives look pretty shit too

Yes, wtf am I going to vote next time ?

nope i was talking to you Peachy sorry if it didn't seem relevant! tho i do see what electra is saying, i do think as somebody else said the war in Iraq ruined so many years of diplomatic relations between UK and the Middle East, so even if GB was going to go ahead it would have been better done without us. When those soldiers got captured by Iran, the US offered to bombard Iran with military jets etc, and the UK thank god declined. Can you imagine what might have happened if the soldiers had been from the US?