Charlie Gard 13

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

My heart breaks for poor Charlie and for C&C. I wish someone with influence over them would step away from the frenzy look them in the eye and tell them to accept that it is too late for Charlie, that they must know somewhere deep down that he can't be both not in pain and able to feel tickles, that sometimes the kindest thing to do is to let someone go. The money raised and their undoubted drive could be refocused into Charlie's legacy and used to further research or genetic testing.
I think if Charlie had been a little older/ more developed before he begain to fade they would "get it" but they are comparing their totally helpless 11 month old to a totally helpless new born and not seeing much difference but they don't seem to be making the comparison to a healthy 11 month old to recognize that Charlie is very very far from well. I hold my little one a bit tighter and kiss him a little more at the moment. I am very aware that while part of me curses the passing of time and his growing ever more bigger and more independent I am so lucky to have a child that is rattling through the milestones and developing normally. I hope C & C can find peace.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·45s Judge asks protesters not upset other visitors to Great Ormond Street Hospital.

CA are following the tweets
They think that the judge wanting to rely on transcripts of the MDT meeting is "one sided"

The Gard's lawyers are playing games here. Spinning it out into a prolonged shitstorm and fuelling speculation and ideas of a GOSH conspiracy. I'm disgusted.

Also the NHS was hit by a massive hacker attack recently, could that have caused problems with notes availability?

That's a good point Beyond - I would think new evidence would get given as soon as possible so it does make me wonder what reasons there would be to not give it.

To me it is either because there isn't any so it can't be given, or to delay matters.

Are Connie and Chris in this meeting or is it just lawyers? I think the latter but can't remember

*Judge asks protesters not upset other visitors to Great Ormond Street Hospital.
*
Good.

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·32s Gollop QC asks judge to confirm that parents cannot take Charlie abroad without a court order, despite US residency. Judge confirms this.

YY WeeWitch

and I'm very happy to read this, although I doubt it will have much impression

"45s Judge asks protesters not upset other visitors to Great Ormond Street Hospital."

Joshua Rozenberg @JoshuaRozenberg
·1m Gard: hearing ends.

Also the NHS was hit by a massive hacker attack recently, could that have caused problems with notes availability?

Not at this time, It might have a while back when the digital stuff had to go offline to allow for checks and updates. One problem was that a lot of computers used in the NHS are on 24/7, so updates weren't getting installed which left them vulnerable. To fix this a lot of services went temporarily offline for a bit at a lot of hospitals, but we're talking hours not days, mind you it sounds like C&C would take "not right not" as a "no we won't let you"

I don't think what the judge said will make any difference to any protests as they would say it wouldn't upset anyone, or that it needs to be done or something like that

If the judge has already requested them to not upset other visitors, does it give a reason to make a more legal request if things escalate?

Gollop QC asks judge to confirm that parents cannot take Charlie abroad without a court order, despite US residency. Judge confirms this." GOSH you are horrendous!!!!

The lack of basic comprehension here is alarming
The JUDGE said that, not GOSH!

I have been following for ages but not commenting.
I was led to believe that a patients hospital notes do not being to the patient but belong to he hospital. A friend of mine had an ill daughter and her full notes were left in her room by accident and she got told off for reading them as they belong to the hospital not the patient even though they are about the patient.

I reckon they are just trying to stall now and trying to get to his first birthday. If they loose they will argue to get past the 4th August.

The QC for the Guardian feels that evidence from Hirano is contained in the transcript. It may be a debatable point as to whether it is new or not. That's the GOSH contention I would imagine. The judge intends to rely on the transcript of the meeting so that's what will happen. Monday will be interesting.

thanks for updates from court

cant believe how much thyre trying to drag this out now-we couldnt see notes we cant do this an that

its getting ridiculous

where is this evidence they keep harping on about

Maybe Connie is complaining that she didn't have the same access to Charlie's notes in the meeting, so was put at a disadvantage as an equal 'expert'

But she was listening into the meetings. she is stalling, its wrong, they have no info Hinaro has agree with Gosh and its as simply as that. I hope poor charlie goes to sleep soon.

Thanks for the court updates. Are the parents/ Armstrong arguing against the meeting transcript being used as evidence then? I'm a bit confused!

@LaconicIcon I agree that is likely what is happening.

Monday will be "GOSH are liars/withholding information" then C & C shouting/crying/storming out of court.

Maybe Connie is complaining that she didn't have the same access to Charlie's notes in the meeting, so was put at a disadvantage as an equal 'expert'

Maybe. There was a tight schedule for that meeting, maybe she wanted a bit more hand-holding rather than just being allowed there as an observer.

It would have taken forever if she'ld have been helped to read the notes at every point of discussion

Maybe they think the charts are being "withheld" because they weren't duplicated into the notes that they got copies of?

That certainly sounds possible.

This situation reminds me so much of the threads around toxic family members and going NC - everyone believes that you should be able to reason and explain and be rational with everyone in every situation, but that just does not work with people who are not coming from a place of rationality.

Judge: (very reasonably) Please don't upset other GOSH visitors.

Not: do not protest, Not: you may not say this, But: please have consideration for others in sensitive situations who may be upset by you.

CA: That's one sided! You're silencing us! What about people upsetting the family?

This is a complete and utter mess. Obviously the judge is expecting this to now roll on through two full days, the judgement may not be done by the 25th, this still looks largely like trying to rehash the original case through again with additional POV from DrH and every possible attempt to stall and confuse by Armstrong rather than anything actually new.

I think it's quite obvious how this is going to end and I'm sure C&C do in their hearts too