Charlie Gard 13

[muckypup73]

This is a thread following the legal and ethical questions raised by the recent court case involving Charlie Gard.

Please could we refrain from insulting or otherwise "bashing" his parents. It isn't in the spirit of Mumsnet and will get the threads removed.

Please could we also remember that at the heart of this case is a terminally ill baby and his heartbroken parents. There are those participating in and watching this thread for whom these issues are painful. Please let's try and be mindful of them when we post. This isn't a place for name calling or trivialising the very real pain they feel. Many parents of severely disabled children are on here.

Lastly, here are some hopefully useful reference points of facts surrounding the case.

13 July GOSH position statement on latest hearing (includes update on Charlie's condition):
www.gosh.nhs.uk/file/23611/download?token=aTPZchww

7 July GOSH statement on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-press-releases/latest-statement-charlie-gard

June 2017 Supreme Court decision:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6rPmvGlNhA&app=desktop

May 2017 Court of Appeal Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/410.html

April 2017 High Court Decision:
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2017/972.html

GOSH FAQ page on Charlie:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

They can obviously say, do and believe whatever they want while they accuse GOSH of lying

I have a question about that. I can see where somebody can say "we don't agree with GOSH's conclusions", but saying "you're lying" and "you're liars !" is quite a different thing.

Is slander (and I guess libel ?) not applicable when the targets are an institution and those who work for it ?

I'm not saying the hospital should/would take action. Just wondering if they even could if they wanted to.

Does the law only apply when named individuals are the target of accusations like lying/liar ?

This from Andy Gard (I presume Chris's brother?) in relation to that post about the April brain damage -

"Whatever happens, Charlie will reveal your lies and absolute corruption of this poisonous system. There will be no hiding from the accountability of this, no worming away. The full truth will come out."

This is the type of family support that they have.

this isnt th army anymor thyre own family believe thres som big conspiracy going on

The wider family are..well. Let's just say they're not helping.

Once Charlie dies which is sadly inevitable, they won't let it rest there. Expect some sort of lawsuit to follow.

The Army is led by the family.

Are the family being like this because he has genetic conditions maybe? In a misplaced guilt kind of way even though such things are no one's fault.

Oh is that a tweet or something?

I was just thinking there is no possible benefit in a hospital suing a patient's family for slander. I also think we can't ask an institution or a professional to be perfect.

But that's a bit scary. Hate the thought of what it must be like in the family's heads at the moment.

Online I think the problem is that to go beyond 'no, we're not liars!' and prove it, Gosh would need to reveal details about Charlie's care that would break patient confidentiality, which they can't do. Charlie's family have no such barrier and can choose to reveal details, or the way they have interpreted details, if they want.

The family really aren't helping. Add in a load of supporters with their own agendas and it is no surprise the situation is like it is.

While the NHS has many great attributes, I can't imagine it being well organised enough to mount a full on conspiracy. Anyone who's ever spent much time dealing with the system would know that.

C&C refused scans for months and months, and were still refusing scans until Judge forced them last week
I can understand why: they knew after January the scans would be sad reading, and would not strengthen their case for treatment.

Maryz

It just seems so far-fetched, yet it's a story that seemingly thousands of people are believing [baffled]

It seems to be almost a kind of mass hysteria that reason cannot penetrate doesn't it?

I also find the amount of work it would take to have a cover up would be immense and would have to involve so many people. And can't work out what they would all get out of it.

And how all those people could be prevented from whistle blowing about it. Even if there were something being done by high up people, I feel it's highly unlikely that someone further down wouldn't leak something.

I'm baffled by the wider family who are encouraging this destructive path. Even Connie's Mum shares CA stuff. She is the one person who should be attempting to help her daughter come to terms with his prognosis.

I also don't get how any rational person can think that numerous dedicated professionals could have conspired together to lie and plot to kill a baby, rather than accept the idea that just maybe the parents, in their desperation and grief, are wrong.

I understand GOSH cannot set the record straight due to confidentiality but I really hope that during next week's hearing the actual facts could be brought out into the open. This whole thing really reminds me of when parents scream about SS stealing their children knowing that the social workers involved has zero right to reply.

think the problem is that to go beyond 'no, we're not liars!' and prove it, Gosh would need to reveal details about Charlie's care that would break patient confidentiality

Yes. It's the same issue we've seen when Hem-mingEsque types make all sorts of claims about a case in the hands of the family court and SS, isn't it ? SS are basically unable to defend themselves from even the most outrageous of accusations, becuase they are bound by confidentially.

I was just wondering if slander/libel were not applicable becuase it's aimed at an institution, not a named person. Because if it were applicable I would have expected their legal team to advise them to choose their words more carefully. (Which to be fair they might be doing, but not really having any impact.)

natasha I have pondered the same. It is easier to believe some great conspiracy theory than to face the brutal truth that the whole of the family may be playing Russian roulette with any future children. I don't envy that position and it is understandable that they are kicking out against it. But they are directing it all in the wrong place.

I also wonder if it is easy to accuse 'GOSH' of lying because it is faceless. Would they really look at individual health care professionals and think they could conspire to kill a child? Although given the abuse some of the legal team has received they aren't adverse to disparaging named individuals.

Sorry Maryz, I meant the rest of CA who are accusing GOSH of conspiracy and presumably don't know the individual staff involved. It is quite upsetting to think about individual doctors and nurses looking after a baby alongside his parents who genuinely seem to think you are falsifying records and conspiring to kill him.

I actually think that even if the Judge rules for the treatment (which I don't think he will) Charlie should be moved elsewhere. I don't think that the staff should have to continue tolerating slurs against them indefinitely and I think they need a break. I imagine other long term residents of the unit do too.