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Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

444 replies

Goodluckjonathan76 · 23/06/2017 12:51

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

OP posts:
WiseDad · 26/06/2017 17:31

And I am glad that my respondent listed www.ummah.com as I found this on the forum. Read it and gain insight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?492731-Forgoing-Marriage-out-of-fear-of-only-finding-Coconuts

Gymnastics class over. Back to real life.

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 18:14

I've got a PhD in Islamic jurisprudence and have published several articles on sharia law and it's interaction with English common law.

Actually I haven't , but asking people to declare their qualifications on an anonymous internet forum isn't particularly going to help anything much

Namechange2837 · 26/06/2017 18:29

Olennas - well said.

Atenco · 26/06/2017 19:03

"And saying "go see an Iman" to me isn't an argument it is avoidance"

That was me and I do not feel the need to pretend I am an expert on things I don't know about, actually. Especially as all that has nothing to do with the subject in hand.

EastMidsMumOf1 · 26/06/2017 19:08

Because - l refuse to engage in an argument as Im finding your comments becoming more and more antagonistic. Im here to answer questions not spoiling for a fight. So have a good day and enjoy.
NameChange - my comments are said in relation to the PP. You refering to muslim Pakistani men, the rotheram case, fears of racism, subtract the word muslim from that statement and there is your real problem. Its Pakistani culture that sees goray (white people) as trash, Im married to one so I know all too well how it works. Not saying my husband or his family see me in that way but there wasnt exactly a standing ovation when he told them he married a white muslim woman. Also if islam was really about hating us white folk do you really think I would of reverted from christianity to islam?
WiseDad: my core argument wasnt about the prophets good deeds, all said in context with relation to what Becauses argument was. My core argument is unless you are BME then you arent going to be in fear of right wingers, it doesnt affect the run of the mill white person. I cant answer every single question about islam and I wouldnt want to lie to make myself seem knowledgable when I am not a scholar, I just follow what I read from quran and sahih hadiths. But for everyone pointing out what is allowed to be done doesnt mean it should be done, in this country sex is legal over 16 years of age, doesnt mean as soon as you reach that age you must go out there and pop your cherry. You can legally carry a gun in America but it doesnt mean you must use it. These of course are examples but as long as no one becomes pedantic I hope you are able to see my point. Im here to shed some light on matters but I can only enlighten the openminded - not for them to agree but just so they can know more about what theyre disagreeing with instead of just taking quotes out of context and using right wing websites to state their points.

EastMidsMumOf1 · 26/06/2017 19:35

Sorry namechange just to add I do have lived in experience I get shunned by white people AND by Pakistani muslims so no Im not belitting at all. As for why are muslims the only ones being targetted, replace the word muslim with jew and EDL with Hitler then ask yourself the same question. There will always be another opponent, muslim, jewish, atheist, christian. Do you not think our armys and the US armys are classed as terrorists in other countries? Its all just dependant on who your nemesis is.

Lucysky2017 · 26/06/2017 20:23

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Namechange2837 · 26/06/2017 20:46

Lovely Lucy 🎶 ♥

WiseDad · 26/06/2017 21:40

Eastmidsmumofone. You seem nice and are one of the good guys. Don't take my challenge for aggression. BecauseBecause etc was out of order and they should apologise. I read their intemperate language and it wasn't right. Please understand the frustration though. Years of complete bollocks from the media, politicians and "community leaders" who have backed themselves into a corner and left us with 3000+ dangerous people on the streets who wish us, and you, harm.

You say you don't have to follow bad laws. This is the critical thing that differentiates you from most of the rest of the Muslim world who, egged on by salafist or wahabi funded Iman and media, think what I set out. To them you would probably be an apostate given what you said about not following the example of Mohammed.

To me you are a fellow Brit, albeit naive in my book regarding religion but way closer to me than you to those you regard as your co-religionists who take it all literally.

Take care. I really mean that. Please do. The right wingers are not to be feared but they can't tell the difference between you and the bad guys. It isn't easy. I live in Tower Hamlets and see the issues up close with people who don't have your patience or command of English. I see the issues with young women married to men far far older than I who don't speak English still. I see the issues in hospital with kids who are severly disabled. I also live near the place where girls went to Syria, where many have been locked up for terror offences, where many have gone to fight for ISIS.

That's why I started reading up on it and applied my work skills to the knowledge I acquired. It is clear there is a massive problem with Islam as the Indonesian governor who was convicted of insulting Islam for saying he could be in charge of Muslims well knows as this is banned apparently as well.

But mainly take care with your religion. Research and think. Adopt the golden rule to treat others how you would wish to be treated and you won't go far wrong.

I am also sure your child will benefit from your experiences as they grow up. Just teach a questioning mind and the golden rule and they will do you proud. Just don't let the religious zealots get their talons into them.

WiseDad · 26/06/2017 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 22:29

Eastmids - thanks for answering questions honestly and openly. Can I ask you why you refer to yourself as a "revert" rather than a "convert" to Islam?

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 22:33

Just a warning that the Masked Arab video contains footage of executions, amputations, people being thrown off buildings etc right from the outset.

Atenco · 26/06/2017 22:42

Just a warning that the Masked Arab video contains footage of executions, amputations, people being thrown off buildings etc

Thanks for the warning, Olennas. How disgusting. I won't even watch fictional deaths

Hidingtonothing · 27/06/2017 00:11

Olenna, Muslims believe everyone is born Muslim so those finding their faith later in life rather than having been brought up Muslim are said to be returning to Islam rather than converting.

OlennasWimple · 27/06/2017 01:45

Hiding I know, but I've met Muslims who chose to use one term and some the other. I'm interested in the choice between them Smile

Lucysky2017 · 27/06/2017 08:20

Sometimes we have to watch or at least force ourselves to know about awful things rather than turn a blind eye has has happened all too often even with genocide in Africa (hutus and tutsis) and even closer to home in the last century in Europe.

Daesh/ISIS and their literal (or what they think is literal) (mis)interpretation of their religion cutting off hands, throwing people off buildings, beating women for showing their leg and the like do need to be watched and fought.

(A lovely school boy sang that Beatles song (Imagine) above last night and accompanied himself at the piano at my son's concert at school, a concert where people of all faiths and none and backgrounds simply came together to play and sing Handel's music and much else, together, in harmony because that is how most of us live day in day out in very mixed communities. I had never realised until last night how much I agree with the words of the song).

Atenco · 27/06/2017 13:04

Sometimes we have to watch or at least force ourselves to know about awful things

Really I do not need to see a video of someone being tortured or killed to realise that it is wrong. I have never seen any of these videos and I am still very clear in my opposition to Daesh, as are all my Muslim friends.

lessworriedaboutthecat · 27/06/2017 14:18

Atenco I agree with you 100%. Its like saying child abuse is wrong and to prove my point here's a video of a child being abused. This is I would say a site for adults however there is no need for video's of graphic violence. I think its weird that Wisedad would have followed what was actually quite a sane post with something that horrible.

I think posting graphic video's are designed to "trigger" people into altering their views and perceptions. I remember seeing some really disturbing video's on the Cologne thread that I wish I could unsee and that definitely affected me.

Atenco · 27/06/2017 14:52

Graphic videos and information can also desensitise, which is my main concern.

WiseDad · 27/06/2017 18:55

Apologies if you thought the video was upsetting. I didn't post links to something horrific as that is counterproductive, but also because I myself would not countenance watching such material. The savagery is beyond imagining and you would never be able to unsee such horrors. Even acknowledging the problem intellectually is tough enough for us.

May I point out that the Masked Arab talks through why Isis is Islamic and there isn't any gory stuff in his videos as the action, so to speak, is cut beforehand. It does show preparation however and from a distance a missle launched and exploding ona group.

Indeed it is milder than almost any 18 rated movie and many Tv shows. It is however real. If you can watch Tv news of the Charlie Hebdo or Bataclam or Nice or Paris or London attacks then you can take ten seconds of the 15-30 min videos the Masked Arab put up.

I don't quite know how to react to someone saying I post I made was actually quite sane. That does rather imply the others were not or that I am not. It is that slur, possibly perceived in this case rather than real, that demeans the author, ignores the points made and results in people thinking they are not being listened to. Those people ignored eventually, if they feel the issue pressing enough, take morebdirect action. Not me clearly as I am eloquent, and well off enough to leave the country, but others are not as lucky.

Perhaps the Sikhs who fought dozens of Pakistani men in Rotherham to stop their daughters abuse are people you should keep in mind when thinking of those taking direct action rather than the lunatic chap from Cardiff.

I started posting here rather than lurking on MN on the education fora and others was because there was clearly some silly false equivalence being drawn. I hope we have moved past that.

Now given the weight of evidence I have posted and the Masked Arab's more eloquent and detailed proofs I note that none has said it is wrong. Maybe we can move on to the other side of the coin, the /far right wing/ threat as there is one? Note that is distinct from the "Tory scum destroying the NHS" rhetoric we hear. I think we are really talking about Britain First and their fellow travellers. I am not sure about the EDL. They have some nutters onboard but their initial purpose was no different from the Sikhs I mentioned above (Google for evidence as I don't have time. You will find it in Jay's report as well). I confess I know less about this side. Perhaps this is because they haven't caused the same destruction of property and life but also because their manifesto for changing western society is a political one at heart and there is no offer of Janna (paradise) if they die. They just die. This itself is a powerful disincentive to take extreme action. There is evidence that there are "far right" (inv commas as I really don't think they are right wing so much as totalitarian statists which is where the right/left circle meets itself again) morons around who will take action but they are like the skinheads and NF of the 70s/80s and I don't recall anyone saying they were a threat to national life back then and I don't see why that should be different now.

Search for "Deus vult" (please don't as there are some scumbags out there) and you will find hate filled rants that you might think equal that of Isis but they appear just thugs rather than zealots. Without some significant trigger events I don't think they will be anything more than a few fringe groups.

In the UK we have been mercifully free of fascists unlike the rest of Europe. We are all as a people a bit too middle of the road to let much happen. That might change if enoughfeel the state isn't looking after our popluation and citizens. There is significant evidence of that being true but it feels to me like British interia dampens change.

The right wing vs Islamic extremist risk debate is only possible with some real information. I set out to provide some and perhaps it has got through. None of it implies Muslims are bad people if, like EastMidsMumoglfOne, they put the bad bits aside and keep the good. If not, and estimates of 3000 active jihadis and 20000 genuine extremists (aka genuine believers) suggest enough do not, then we have a serious problem. The British army has

Lucysky2017 · 27/06/2017 19:01

I think we all keep watch for far right extremists. We have been very lucky that even in the 1930s in the Uk they were not very popular as we tend to be middle of the roaders here in the UK.

That does not mean we should not keep a close eye on things.

BertrandRussell · 27/06/2017 19:26

Ds's school is very aware of extreme right propaganda- it's what we think about when we discuss radicalization. We are in a very monocultural area.

CrossWordSalad · 28/06/2017 11:18

An interesting piece written by a Muslim

Instead of Silencing Criticism, We Must Encourage It

www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spvqq8

becausebecausebecause · 29/06/2017 01:55

Deathly silence... In fact, the silence is deafening. Throw in a thread about Parking or Madeleine McCann and you can bet your bottom dollar the harpies are out in force.Talk some sense about the people who want us dead from Islamists and, poof! Silence. You gotta love the deluded mums of mumsnet.

BertrandRussell · 29/06/2017 06:21

"You gotta love the deluded mums of mumsnet"

Actually, I have more or less given up on this thread, not because I am deluded, but because you were so unkoeasant to eastmidsmum and because WiseDad was being so incredibly patronising. I would love to keep talking about this vitally important stuff.

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