Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

[Goodluckjonathan76]

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

"I have walked past the Didsbury mosque hundreds of times, and around the area where Abedi lived."

That must be very unsettling, to say the least. But do remember that Abedi was thrown out of the mosque and reported to the authorities multiple times...........

"We'll have to agree to disagree on that Bertrand, I don't believe the 'far right' will ever have enough influence to destroy our society."

They are already doing it- the far right and the not so far right. Brexit, the repeated assaults on the NHS, complete contempt for the poor........

There is a whole trail of jihadis from that area. It's not one solo crazy.

"However when groups in the UK interfere with how the rest of us live then we step in"

What do you mean?

I actually knew an amazing Muslim woman (friend of my Mums) who was originally from Sierra Leone that was a prominent social worker, women's rights campaigner who did loads for charity in the local area. She was well known in her community and very outspoken and determined.
She attended Didsbury Mosque back when she was around (sadly passed away now), and her husband was told to "control his woman" several times there. They didn't like that she was very much the matriarch in her family and so outspoken.

Brexit is a far right issue? What a load of utter bollocks.

I did say "the far right and the not so far right...."

But feel free to make your measured contribution!

Ten years ago, Munira Mirza, Abi Senthilkumaran and Zein Ja‘far conducted an in-depth study of the British Muslim population for the think tank “Policy Exchange.” The report was called “Living Apart Together: British Muslims and the Paradox of Multiculturalism.” The findings did not paint a bright picture of the present or future of the integration of Muslims into British society.

Religion was the most important thing in the lives of 86 percent of the surveyed people. A third of them said that they felt more in common with Muslims from other countries than with non-Muslim British people. More than a third of polled Muslim teenagers and adolescents believed that leaving Islam should be punishable by death, compared to one-fifth of over-55-year-old Muslims. Two-thirds of surveyed people said they are content with living under British law, while 28 percent would prefer living under Sharia law. The percentage in that group, again, was doubled among young people. Among 16- to 24-year-olds, 13 percent admired al Qaeda, compared to only 3 percent among the elders. More than half preferred Muslim women to wear the veil. Among young people, the percentage rose to 74 percent. Around 37 percent expressed the belief that “one of the benefits of modern society is the freedom to criticize other people’s religious or political views, even when it causes offense” while more than half didn‘t share this attitude.

Regarding scholarly interpretations of Sharia law, the respondents were often deeply divided on the issues. Just over a half of polled Muslims said that Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to marry outside of their community, and 43 percent of them believed that a woman cannot marry without the consent of her guardian. More than 60 percent believed that homosexuality should be illegal. Almost half of polled Muslims said that Sharia law should be interpreted in order to fit modern ideas, while 39 percent objected to that. Similarly, the belief that British society offers young people moral and cultural values was split 50-50.

www.intelligencerpost.com/places-like-didsbury-mosque-facilitate-culture-alienated-muslims/

Namechange I no longer live in that area but it is where I grew up and I have visited frequently since. I think to be living there whilst this is going on must be very hard, I really feel for you.

As to why the Didsbury Mosque is not being investigated - it is all part of the same reluctance to acknowledge and deal openly with the problematic aspects of Islam. The same with FGM and the Muslim grooming gang epidemic.

All I want is that people are treated equally, in how they are expected to adhere to the law and in how they are protected by the law. If we, as a society, had done this all along, we wouldn't be where we are. There would have been prosecutions for FGM and children removed from their parents for protection and the practice would have started to die out. The lack of response and denial about the grooming gangs would not have happened and there would have been a national soul searching about how we could let this happen and what we could do to prevent it. Instead we still have massive denial about the scale of the problem and a total lack of discussion about the reasons a specific part of our population is massively disproportionatly involved in these types of crimes.

There are no issues with the orthodox Jews, as far as I am aware, in relation to adherence to the law, terrorism (just to clarify, obvs neither is there for all Muslims, only a proportion). Personally, I am not really that bothered whether people integrate or not as long as they keep to the laws of this country.

There was a huge leftist vote for Brexit, it wasn't purely right leaning in balance.

I did reference this utterly terrifying video pages back. No one appears to think it relevant but if this mother is as anything to by, the ideology of Islam terrifies me and is far more frightening to me than any Right Wing EDL nutter.

The reports that Didsbury Mosque reported Abedi to the authorities were corrected by the Mosque itself some days after this claim was made.

madewww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/didsbury-mosque-leaders-admit-lot-13109310

because I watched the video you posted yesterday. I didn't really know what to say. It is so, so sad. Do you know who made the video and can we be sure the translation is correct? If it is, it is terrifying.

Really interesting article WiseDad

Contrary to the positions and fallacious arguments advanced by those mentioned, the only answer available for society which has a hope of combating both Jihadism and anti-Muslim violence, is more criticism and more debate, not less.

I think this is so true. The avoidance of addressing many of the issues we face has been, as far as I can see, for two main reasons (I'm sure there are others including political ones).

One is fear of being called a racist or bigot. I do think this is starting to have less traction for many people. As the article says, labels lose their currency if misused. I, for one, have been called a racist and a bigot because I don't want to stay in the EU and once that slur has been wrongly thrown at you enough times, you stop worrying. More people are seeing it as, in many cases, a tactic to discredit and silence. Also, as the stakes increase, the relative importance of being unfairly called a racist or bigot diminishes.

The second is fear that acknowledging problems will add fuel to the far-right and increase inter ethnic/religious tensions. I have seen this suggested by credible sources (eg Richard North of the Times) for minimising the grooming gang epidemic. This idea just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly because in a free democracy, the state and authorities should not be covering up problems to avoid reactions to those problems. And secondly, because this approach is totally, totally counterproductive. This approach of brushing under the carpet, denial, turning a blind eye, will lead in the long run, to more inter ethnic/religious tension and fuel for the far right than dealing with the issues openly, fairly and according to our laws and values.

The truth about the video is scary but the attitude is real. Check MEMRI tv for much much more in the same vein.

Also try to read up about the principle of abrogation to understand that some words in the Quran have been substituted for something better. This is important to understand what was an instruction for a time and what is for all time.

The far right as it is currently branded is a reaction to deep issues with a lack of recognition of a serious problem. BetrandRussell commenting about the NHS and the "near right" is just so off topic as to be pointless. It is like saying you are worried about loosing your keys more than Islam as being locked out is likely to have a severe negative consequence. This is an apples and oranges comparison and it is possible to be worried about both at once. The logical chain that the so called right wing are damaging things I care about therefore everything that I associate with the right wing must be as good as the thing I care about is perhaps what we see behind many responses. To give BertradnRussell credit they have never said this, merely that other things are worthy of concern as well.

That's great but one thing has come from nowhere, been put on a pedestal above many other things and yet is ideologically opposed to much that our liberal society holds dear. What is worse is that the liberal society itself is crumbling without purpose at the same time. Corbin may be completely and verifiably wrong on many issues but at least the man has an opinion and an argument as opposed to just triangulating the most politically expedient position to offend the fewest yet superficially impress the most.

To argue about taxation and distribution implies everything is alright and we just have some twiddling to do. In reality the very foundation stones of the structure of society are under threat. I refer to freedom of conscience and belief (yes I really don't mind that you might think Allah wrote out the future on a tablet of stone at the start of time but I want to be able to make fun of your stupidity without being worried about ending up in jail because making fun of religion is a hate crime), freedom of speech, free trade and free markets. All of these are under threat right now or have been pushed to one side.

To prove I am a wise dad I am bowing out. My real life needs me. This weekend I have taken my daughter to see Beauty and The Beast at the local cinema, I have done all the washing (three kids - no mean feat!) and we had a great prize giving day at school yesterday. We have plans to bake a cake and have played both some daft memory game, a card game my son picked up from school and liar dice/perudo. We have to go shopping for some fruit as the most fruity thing we have is the sickly sweet fruit ice cream lollipops that have appeared in the freezer. Then we have to create party invites for the two birthdays we have coming up. It never stops here.!

Oops

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/didsbury-mosque-leaders-admit-lot-13109310

side note that all my references are sahih Hadith and therefore the highest, gold standard if you will

Again Dad your ignorance is evidenced, contrary to what you wish to have posters believe. The hadiths are NOT 'gold standard'. They come in interpretation and varied acceptance. They were written well after Mohammed's death, something like 60 to 300 hundred years after. So their authenticity is open to debate - which is why scholars guage them from strong-medium-weak. Some of the more debateable ones are the later-written ones.
You seem to type a lot but create more heat than light.

Crumbs Dad - you seem to bow out quite a lot.

So you claim to be a busy dad? Well done you. Most of us don't feel the need to advertise that fact across the internet.

" "However when groups in the UK interfere with how the rest of us live then we step in"

What do you mean? "
I just mean I want freedom of expression and religion but if, which is pretty rare, my right to walk down a street in Muslim or Jewish areas wearing what I like is sought to be curtailed or I am not allowed to mock the Prophet or draw a Jesus and Mo cartoon or say there is no God or men and women are equal then English law should and usually does step in and ensure I continue to have my rights, even if they upset muslims, jews or anyone else.

"my right to walk down a street in Muslim or Jewish areas wearing what I like is sought to be curtailed or I am not allowed to mock the Prophet or draw a Jesus"

Your right to wear what you want is already curtailed as you would not get very far going out topless or naked, would you? As for your right to "mock the prophet or a draw a Jesus"?? Is this really essential to your well-being?

Atenco Do you believe we should have to abide by the blasphemy edicts of other people's religions in this country?

And yes, obvs we cannot walk down the street baked but that is due to the norms and culture of our country. Do you believe women should have to dress a certain way so as not to offend the religious sensibilities of a subsection of the population?

Pannn. You know then that strong Ones are the ones I quoted. Are you saying they are wrong or not? I know there are varying standards according to the chain of narration or narrators as well as the time lag and the number of different accounts. The point is the strong ones form the basis of Islamic jurisprudence and I quote only those. Are you suggesting that Bukhari was wrong? Which of those that I referenced is wrong? Rather than just saying "you're ignorant" prove me wrong in what I am saying. I think it wonderful that many ignore the teachings and want to adopt different standards but let's not pretend the origin was all sweetness and light and charity and hugs and kisses.

As for being busy. Effectively a single parent. And Mumsnet appears full of signalling. I was merely stating what had happened and that my need to do something else was strong. Apologies. I recognise that many have much more difficult circumstances than me. I can afford to throw money at problems which is a luxury that many do not have.

it's amazing what you can squeeze in nowadays with a handphone. Most admin gets done on the run.

naked not baked

As for your right to "mock the prophet or a draw a Jesus"?? Is this really essential to your well-being? - satire IS part of our societal norms. Look at the Charlie Hebdo attack.

"And yes, obvs we cannot walk down the street baked but that is due to the norms and culture of our country. Do you believe women should have to dress a certain way so as not to offend the religious sensibilities of a subsection of the population?"

No. Well, not unless I want to go into their place of worship. But I don t think I have ever been expected to.