Josie Long - we are more at risk from right wing extremists than Islamic extremists

[Goodluckjonathan76]

A friend just posted a link to Josie's rant on her Facebook page. I honestly felt sick watching it. For a start, in terms of numbers of deaths, we are looking at 2 deaths (Jo Cox and man at Finsbury Park mosque) (please correct me if I am wrong) compared to multiple deaths in Manchester and London Bridge, not to mention the attacks in Paris, Nice and Brussels. Firstly, how is this the time to be comparing which is worse, and secondly, if we must compare then Islamic extremists pose a far greater risk in terms of loss of life. Am I missing something? Or has the world gone mad.

Another thing as far as the "half worth of a man" thing. In this day and age if a womans raped she has to get the police to believe her then the CPS and if it even gets to court she has to be cross examined and THEN win over the members of the jury.. Ive been THAT woman, infact child at the time. What fantastic "human rights" bullshit that is. Im not talking about my human rights either, this country protects the rights of scum too. You know the best part? That was by a group of white men and 4 years later most of them have been released anyway. Maybe I should say its the "secular human righte extremists" that caused that ey?

No you didn't because I didn't say anything of the sort. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you want me to come out and quote then I will. Islam is a dinosaur religion, unfeminist and undemocratic, but you surely must know that already. As you must know that Extremists are just taking the wooly interpretations of your religion to the nth degree.

Oh no! You missed the bit if a child is raped, groomed and raped, she is equally not believed so as to appease islam and all who stand for it! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

Ah, the lovely Muslim Linda Sarsour, who wanted to take Hirsi Alis Vagina away.

It's othering of course, because it can't possibly be happening here.

"In this day and age if a womans raped she has to get the police to believe her then the CPS and if it even gets to court she has to be cross examined and THEN win over the members of the jury.." It's called Justice and it's the law of the land you live in. We all must abide with it, whatever it's strengths or weaknesses. Suck it up buttercup.

Mind you, perhaps your Jihadi version of justice, what;s it called, Sharia, would have cut these Pakistanis down to size. Then again, perhaps not.www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

"On the contrary. It is of the utmost importance that wider society wakes up to the fact that there is what the inquiry found to be a “deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls”. Many of us who have been saying this for a long time have been shouted down as racist. Thanks to Prof Jay, it has been stated publicly for the first time that the fear of appearing racist was more pressing in official minds than enforcing the law of the land or rescuing terrified children. It is one of the great scandals of our lifetime.
The Labour council of Rotherham stands accused of ignoring child sex abuse on an unimaginable scale for 16 years. " www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

EastMids - its all well and good telling us that you dont have a problem with people wearing short skirts and drinking alcohol (although I dont see why this even needs to be acknowledged), but that doesnt mean that there arent many Muslims who do. Its all well and good saying that you dont wish hate and violence on those who are LGBT, but it doesnt mean that there arent many Muslims that do.
In regards the criminal justice system - all victims have to report to police, then CPS, then a jury - its innocent until proven guilty. What do you think should be the alternative? As soon as someone says theyre raped, lock up the man and throw away the key?!
In regards to your experience, I'm sorry you were raped, and everyone up and down the country would be disgusted on your behalf.
The Rochdale grooming scandal however raises -significant- questions which people need answering -

• What is the Muslim (specifically Pakistani) perspective on white girls? [just to say, I went to a high school which was about 40-50% Muslim, many of pakistani heritage, and many of the boys refered to us (girls) as white dogs - any opinion on that?] - The men involved in the rochdale scandal were predominantly of Pakistani heritage, and they targeted white girls, in an area where there were also many asian girls. But it was white girls they targeted - why?
• Why were the police so afraid to take it seriously for fear of being called a racist / islamophobe / bigot?? just like RIGHT HERE on this thread now - god forbid we should question some of the values and ideologies that are being brought into, and practiced, in this country.

I'm sorry but just NO!!!!! Also going back to my teen years - there is an all girls Muslim school that we used to walk past on our way back from school every day - they would not get normal buses, they would not mix at all. And when we walked past we would get shouted "slags" at us - by teenage girls dressed like they were in the middle east, who didnt integrate with anyone in the local area. I'm sorry but NO!! You dont want to integrate into our society? You dont like that we are white and have our hair out? You have such low opinion of white girls that you think it fine to abuse them? THEN FUCK OFF! Go and live in Saudi, Libya, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc where you would be more comfortable. Sorry but this is really pissing me off now. These are LIVED experiences by us and for you to simply come on here and say "well I dont mind if someone wears a skirt or drinks beer" is so bloody belittling and dismissive of real issues that are going on. If you arent aware of that then you are absolutely clueless. And just finally EastMids - -WHY- do you think Islam is being the one religion "targeted" ?? Why is it that people arent saying these things about Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism?? WHYYYY is it Islam?? is it because we all woke up one day and thought "lets just bully all the Muslims for no good reason", or is it because of REAL, LIVED experiences??? Just think about that for a bit.

I find this very receptive. westmidsmumof1 says "Islam says don't kill innocents". Someone says "no!" WMMO1 says "yes!" Someone says "liar".

All without references or argument. My tip for a better argument. Apply the Socratic method. What do words mean, exactly? If, once you boil all the excess garbage and misunderstandings out, you agree on the core then you agree.

WMMOO seems like a person who wants good things and is caught up in a battle of ideas and morality that she doesn't like. She is one of the good guys I mentioned up-thread who is trying to reconcile the golden rule with her religion and jettisoning or at least strongly downplaying the bits of her religion she doesn't like. Many others are doing the same, but in the opposite direction and murdering people.

And let's not kid ourselves that ISIS isn't Islam as that is a tale told to children to keep them cosy at night. Al-Bagdadhi (sp?) has a PhD from the most prestigious University of Islamic studies. And he doesn't know Islam? Yeah. And the Archbishop of Canterbury isn't a Christian. ISIS are very good at referencing Quran and Hadith to justify their actions. Saying "No, the're not Islamic" is the same argument style as between the posters I characterise above. It isn't an argument it is Monty Python's Argument sketch all over again, which for the uninitiated is purely about contradicting someone and not /arguing/.

WMMOO's core argument is "Mohammed out someone to death on the word of a woman therefore Islam is good". Hmm. I think we can see the issue there. If someone said "Hitler was a vegetarian and loved animals therefore he was good" we would rightly laugh at them.

So did Mohammed swap slaves? That's not very nice.

So did Mohammed have sex with small children? That's not very nice.

So did Mohammed require those who change their religion to be killed?
That's not very nice at all.

Not such a great chap in my opinion. Lots of people live better lives than that and we don't call them the perfect man and dedicate ourselves to copying their actions.

So Who exactly is defined as innocent in the Quran? (refs please as I gave my refs so my argument can be open and checked).

Which Hadith gives the example of a woman's testimony being equal or greater to that of a man as it would appear to contradict Quran 2:282 ("And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." in case you don't have time to look it up) which has been used to set standards in Islamic jurisprudence? (I freely admit that this is a poor argument as some minor schools of thought say women shouldn't be allowed to testify at all. Four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence by the way - look 'em up - fascinating and appalling in their commonality of opinion about sex with a pre-pubescent girl though. Also by the way did you know that in most Islamic countries a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man. No where could they have got that idea from I wonder?)

Right. Boys have gone to school in an Uber and I need to get my last one ready do I can walk her to school before heading to my office. Enjoy your days everyone. Each sunny day is as a gift from the heavens, or if an atheist like me just something to revel in once more.

Eastmidsmumofone you seem very nice thank you for sharing your perspective on your faith with us. Its important to remember that the overwhelming majority of Muslims living in this country are law abiding and peaceful.

You have to be really careful when looking at Islamic justifications for things as the principle of abrogation comes into play. Revealed in the Quran Allah states quite clearly, for Allah at least, that sometimes something better comes along that applies. I mentioned this before.

EastMidlandsMumOfOne (apologies for relocation to the West earlier!) posted a reference which relies on Al-Baqarah 190-194 as an explanation of why Islam is peaceful. One tiny flaw in the reasoning is that those verses are abrogated by others, and more specifically by the "sword" verse. Hmm. Look it up in Islamic sources.

Ignore anything without references and argument. Always check for abrogation. Always. And check Hadith for their authenticity. Someone apparently made up 20,000 of them for fame and fortune way back in the mists of time so you have to be careful.

As for the idea we are ok because most Muslims are law abiding and peaceful. Imagine writing that about any other group on the world and being relieved! It's like saying most people don't want to rob you so therefore you shouldn't lock your door or should leave your valuables on display. It only takes a few to bugger it up for everyone else, including the peaceable Muslims, and there are more than a few who want to bugger it up.

WiseDad- can I ask how you are qualified to be so authoritative on this subject? Are you an academic?

Let's put it this way.... that is just as irrelevant as much as an argument from authority would be.

What matters are facts, not who says them. Or do you disagree? And if you agree then perhaps can we discuss the facts? Or switch to recipes for gluten free brownies or some such?

So no more qualifications than anyone else then? Your authoritative tone suggested otherwise. Fair enough.

WiseDad- can I ask how you are qualified to be so authoritative on this subject? Are you an academic?

Let's put it this way.... that is just as irrelevant as much as an argument from authority would be

Oh yes and I bet you know how to build airplanes too.

Muslims who care about their religion study it everyday and take knowledge from people who have been studying it for forty odd years. It is easy to find a few translations of hadiths and the qur'an to fit your agenda, but it is not like that.

WiseDad- can I ask how you are qualified to be so authoritative on this subject? Are you an academic?

Apparently a penis is just as good, if not better.

Apparently a penis is just as good, if not better - that's a little bit sexist. What if Wisedad was WiseMum? Would you comment that apparently a vagina is just as good?

I would have asked anyone who spoke with such apparent authority as WiseDad what that authority was based on, regardless of sex. I like to know whether a poster is someone who has knowledge I can learn from.

I was commenting on slug's reply

Well, you have to admit, it is a bit mansplainy.......

Or superdadsplainy.......

And I was just commentating on the tone. It's like the old joke....Where to MRAs get their drinks from? A "well actually"

And, not that you would know it of course, I do happen to have a degree in Religious Studies with a major in Islamic Studies. While I'm not an academic, I currently work with lots of academics in a university with a worldwide reputation in this area (massively outs self) And I think most of WiseDad's comments show a distinct lack of 'wisdom'.

Irrelevant. BertrandRussell's argument on lack of authority is as pointless as an argument from authority.

At no point has anyone gone "I have checked and it's all wrong". EastMidmum started and earned my undying respect for stating her beliefs. And saying "go see an Iman" to me isn't an argument it is avoidance.

My profession has taught me that assertion checking is very important and I expect no less of any assertion I make.

slug. Go for it then. Tell me from your authority what is wrong with what I have posted. Otherwise my response to you as the same as to BR. I say nothing about my background as it is irrelevant to the points made.

I hope you can see that. I know others reading will and will draw their own conclusions.