London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

[RhythmAndStealth]

RIP

Five victims officially named
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more
Many displaced and struggling

To all those affected and all those helping

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/grenfell-tower-tory-austerity-class-war-outsourcing-inequality-kensington-corbyn-may-mausoleum-a7805666.html
Grenfell tower: The beginning of the end for the Tory austerity regime

Grenfellis amanifestation of the violence waged silently every day againstthe lives of the poor – an entirely avoidable tragedy generated by the housing crisis, austerity, deregulation and outsourcing. Youssef El-Gingihyexplains

Long Read from the Independent

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/grenfell-tower-gas-pipes-left-exposed-despite-fire-safety-experts-orders?CMP=twt_gu
Grenfell Tower gas pipes left exposed despite fire safety expert's orders
Council expert said pipes serving flats must be protected with fire-retardant boxing but by time of fire two-thirds were still bare

This isn't in the article but one elderly resident who is amongst the missing was so scared by the gas pipes he was reluctant to leave his flat and when he did he initially refused to go down the stairs instead insisting on going down by the lift. This might have contributed to him becoming separated from other family members.

I think Helena and others raising the issues tenants of Grenfall and other HA tenants is extremely relevant.

The residents of Grenfall died because no one listened to them. Because they were HA tenants.

There are thousands of other HA tenants that are currently homeless and I believe these tenants have also raised concerns and not been listened to.

Whether you are a HA tenant, a council tenant, a homeowner or a multi millionaire you should all be concerned about this because where tenants have their rent paid or topped up by housing benefit its your tax that is funding the chronic mismanagement of HAs.

And whatever your financial position now things can go horribly wrong and any one of us might rely one day on a social housing property. I bought my own property when I was 18 and was smug as fuck that I had.

Now I live in a HA property. Thankfully our HA is excellent and I have no issues. But I know plenty of people who do have issues.

So issues need to be discussed and HA should be as accountable as private landlords. And a really good place to discuss these things is a thread about 79+ HA tenants dying because no one listened.

"Start the fight for justice now" Hillsborough mum Margaret Aspinall urges Grenfell survivors.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/start-fight-justice-now-hillsborough-13206412

Red and Frouby You have put it much better than i did

Sorry if this was posted already
A look at how all this criminal neglect happens

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40418266

I thought money was no object when it came to supporting the victims of Grenfell, & other tower blocks to prevent such a tragedy ever happening again.

It appears not...... that local authorities are going to have to find the money themselves to replace cladding with fire retardant cladding.

Back to second class citizens living in Social Housing, this really doesn't do anything to "change that belief does it?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-scandal-council-funding-government-no-guarantee-local-government-budgets-a7809216.html

I cannot get my head around that the tower had no central heating/hot water? how would you otherwise efficiently organise that in large residential buildings?

Ben Okri has written a powerful impassioned poem about the Grenfell Fire. Part,of,it was read out on the Channel 4 news by Ben Okri.

I have found it online and have posted it in full on this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2965473-Grenfell-Tower-June-2017-a-powerful-poem-by-Ben-Okri?

My understanding was that there was central heating. I saw photos of pipes like the one below in hallways and stairwells featured on news programmes, there had been complaints that they weren't boxed in - the boilers were also in hallways

(Thought it might get swallowed up by this thread)

Sorry I haven't kept up...

but just wanted to say that insurance companies don't automatically cover emergency accommodation. They didn't for us, even though it was a paid part of our cover.

www.itv.com/news/2017-06-27/firefighters-issued-warning-on-flammable-building-panels-in-may/
Firefighters issued warning on flammable building panels in May

They said that "combustible" panels were being used that could potentially spread blazes between flats in a letter seen by ITV News which was sent to all 33 local authorities in the capital.

The letter was sent out as a result of investigations into an earlier fire at the Shepherd's Court council block in Hammersmith, west London.

It highlighted the "external spread" of the fire over the building and said subsequent testing of panels on the building found they were flammable and did not meet housing regulations on fire safety.

and

Mr Daly also said that concerns over potentially flammable filler panels on the outside of blocks also been raised in an earlier letter dating back to 2009.

He warned that such cladding broke regulations over fire safety and urged local authorities to take proactive steps to ensure lives were not put at risk.

"In the light of fires that have occurred, I would urge you to consider carefully your arrangements for specifying, monitoring and approving all aspects of future replacement and improvement to building facades and construction of new buildings for which you are responsible," he wrote.

This is important.

You have on the one hand the regulator telling people how to get around building regulations whilst the fire brigade telling councils building were in breech of fire safety.

I think what is emerging is the panels did no breech one set of rules but they did breech an another and people were selectively putting one ahead of the other.

But the fact there is a warning in here is significant. Even if there is a wholesale problem with building regulations, this could be damning.

The Council's obligation is potentially different to commercial bodies. One might be more at risk of prosecution than the other for this reason.

Albadross. "They didn't for us, even though it was a paid part of our cover"

What was their excuse? Awful.

The BBC article explains how no one is in charge really and I think that's key to all this.

Bloody hell Red. So many warnings were there So completely preventable

Albadross thats disgusting.

I'm torn as to whether the information coming out means no one will be ultimately held responsible or whether there is a chain of responsibility. It may be difficult for the police to pin it on someone.

At this stage it looks like the contractor, the building regulator, the council and senior government ministers perhaps have questions to answer. Whether this constitutes criminal charges I don't know.

Oh and the management company.

The residents should not be consulted on the appointment of the Chair of the Inquiry. No more than anyone else should be I'm afraid. They just don't have the experience to say yay or nay and arguments slow the whole process up which is not helpful. The best use of time is to get represented by a top flight QC that knows about buildings and will put a coherent case to the Inquiry covering all the aspects that need to be raised. There are very many. Not least why a fridge freezer exploded that was manufactured between 2006/09!

One aspect that tends to get overlooked is that flats this size would benefit from having caretakers or managers on site living in one of the flats.

Many HA estates did have caretakers on site.

But in many cases they were phased out. I totally agree that a block that size needs one though.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/residents-fight-to-keep-live-in-caretaker-1210175

There will be a spec for the work. The cladding used would have been specified by the architect. We have muddled building regs and these are the responsibility of the Government but are subject to ongoing alteration by all Governments. Why are they confused and ambiguous? Was this cladding known to be combustible and what tests were carried out on it? The cheaper combustible cladding could be used on buildings up to 18m high. This building was taller so how did it get used on this building and very many others? Did the contractor knowingly fit the cheaper panels? If so, was it in the spec or did they swap to the cheaper ones? The cladding contractor was not the same as the overall contractor. Who was the project manager? What knowledge did they have about these panels. Did anyone know if cheaper ones had been used deliberately to save money? Why did no-one question the use of these panels? Why were there no fire safety checks or evacuation procedures? And so it goes on.....

Getting to the bottom of this quickly and amending the building regs is paramount as well as banning combustible panels. Whether there is criminal negligence or corporate manslaughter remains to be seen. The Police must obtain evidence and the DPP will have to decide upon whether anyone or any corporate body is prosecuted.

Red that guardian article you linked contains the statement that "National Grid are a law unto themselves" Worrying.

IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 5m5 minutes ago
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but the council and the council leader keep showing they've done a good job, which isn't true. #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 5m5 minutes ago
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I feel super angry that even now families with children / elders still have nowhere to go #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 7m7 minutes ago
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problems are never solved, they kick you back and forth to different people, but nothing is solved. #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 9m9 minutes ago
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Council's email came back, said they can't help, went to the rest centre, said they can't help either. #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation

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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 10m10 minutes ago
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Been trying to get an accommodation last night, and everything's booked out in London. No hotel, no BNB. #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/27/rise-in-camden-tower-block-residents-staying-put-despite-evacuation

i'm sure over the past 25 pages it's been said but evacuating without your belongings often means that thieves will get their hands on all you own.

out2 - what a horrifying prospect.
I think the camden evacuation could have been handled differently.
maybe without evacuation, but with full time observation/security at location.
pure speculation though as I don't have all details of course.

tbh I think there is a problem in the uk with building developers cutting costs at every stage, shoddy poor quality workmanship. across all types of buildings.