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London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

958 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 20/06/2017 17:14

RIP Flowers

Five victims officially named Flowers
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more Flowers
Many displaced and struggling Flowers

To all those affected and all those helping Flowers

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
rizlett · 28/06/2017 08:18

I've not RTHT but this post on fb might be of interest.

Pete Drummond
17 June at 18:15 ·
Apologies to my Facebook friends who are probably fed up of posts with ref to the fire in London but I would just like to share a powerful and emotional account of one of the FFs who went into the fire. Its quite a long read but well worth it in my opinion. He has put into words what many couldn't......

----

As always we were woken with a start, the lights came on and the automated tannoy voice started shouting our call signs. It never fails to set your heat racing. Getting dressed I looked at the clock, I'd only lay down less than a hour ago. Time to see what we've got this time..
Down the pole to the trucks and it's here I'm handed the call slip make pumps 25... what! No..
That's a big incident.
Wait.... I don't know where this is.. it's not on our ground.
We have to look it up and then we're out the doors.

We arrived about 0120hrs but due to the way cars are parked in the streets and the fire engines that are arriving with us we couldn't get closer than 4-5 streets away from the building. Other trucks were closer they would be setting up water ready for us.

We could see this was a bad one immediately. The sky was glowing. Leaving our truck we started quickly towards it. Picking up pace we are carrying our BA sets on our back, while making our way we are trying to read the conditions in front of us, trying to take in as much information as we could. How big is the tower, where is the fire, where is the fire going next, how's it behaving, how many flats are internally affected, how many people are in there?

We mustered outside the entrance. Parts of the building we already starting to fall down on to the surrounding area.
As we entered the building the fire on the outside was raging from the top to the bottom.
Walking up to the bridgehead on the 3rd floor we were told to look at a floor plan that had been hastily drawn on a wall.
We stood looking at it waiting at entry control to be given instructions my BA partner and I (a new mother herself) stood waiting with other firefighters waiting to see what information there was available. Then we received our brief... 23rd floor people stuck in their flat go!
23rd floor? I repeat back.. giving the flat number I received to the Watch manager.
She confirms. I turned at told my BA as the reality of how high we are going to try and go on a single cylinder of air.

Weighed down carrying 30kg+ of equipment not including our firekit and breathing apparatus (BA) we passed through entry control handing in our tallies and confirming our brief.
We made our way up a crowed stairwell struggling to make progress, at times unable to pass because of the amount of people on the stairs. The stairwells were full of other BA crews bringing people down all in various states and conditions.

The smoke grew thicker with each floor we went up. No proper floor numbers on the stairwells after about the 5th floor made it hard to know where you were. Someone before us had tried to write them on the wall with chinagraph pencil but this didn't last long. The dirty smoke was covering the walls with a film of blackness

Around the 9th floor we lost all visibility and the heat was rising. Still we continued up and up through the blackness. We reached what we believed to be the 19/20th floor but there was no way to tell. It was here where we found a couple trying to find their way out, panicking, choking, blinded by the thick toxic air.

A quick gauge check showed us that the amount of floors we'd climbed had taken its toll, we were getting low on air. There's no way we could make it to the 23rd and back to the bridgehead.

The couple were shouting and screaming at us through the coughing, trying to tell us there were 5 more people on the floor above!

Now I had horrible decisions to make and a very short amount of time to make them.

In what I think would of been less than a minute these are all the things I had going through my head.
I will list a few of them for you.
All of which I needed to consider before making my decision:........

•Now that we've stopped and lost our rhythm on the stairs would we have enough air to leave this couple and try to reach the next floor?

•Was the information we are getting from these people was correct. After all they are frantically panicking as they choke and suffer from the heat.

•If we let them carry on down the stairs alone would they or could they find their own way out?

•If we went up another floor would we actually find the 5?

•If we found them what state would they be in? Could the two of us get that many out especially one or more are unconscious?

•How would we decided who to take?

•Do we have enough air to make it back down to safety ourselves from where we are?

•Should I be considering asking my BA partner a "new mother" to risk even more than she already has...?

•Can I accept/live with the thought that saving two lives is better than taking the risk to go up and potentially saving no one?

Ahh!! Come on think...!
Am I doing enough?
Can I give more?
Am I forgetting any of my training....?

Stop....

Breath.....

Think.....

•Why haven't we seen another crew for so long?

•Will another crew find them?

•Are we really where we think we are?

•The radios are playing up... have we missed a important message.

•Have all crews been pulled out?

•Is the structure still safe?

Come on make a decision... and make it quick these people are choking.......

Ok Ok Ok!
Dam!
Come on!! Think!!
Right... ok
Decision made!

I do a double check... ask my partner...
Is it the right decision..?
Ahhh
I'm doubting myself,
Ahhh! there's no time for this!
Come on get on with it...

Right! Make the call!

I try to radio down to entry control.

"Alpha Control Priority!"......
No response....

"Alpha Control Priority!"
Still No response....

Where are they... what's going on?!?

"Alpha Control Priority!"
.....................
.....................

Did they answer... it's hard to tell.. the signal is all broken I think I can just about hear something.

"Alpha Control Priority!"

Alpha control responds...
"Go a head with priority over"

Are they talking to me I can't hear my call sign...

Pass the message

Alpha control.. Two casualties found approx 20th floor, crew now escorting them down, request another BA team be committed to reach flat on 23rd floor. Further traffic....
5 casualties are reported apparently trying to make their way out on the floor above. Over

Alpha control "Message received"

Were they talking to me it broke up again...

Ok we really need to get out.
Let's go!
Grab my arm.

Taking a casualty each we set off. Within two floors both of us had been pushed down one of the flight of the stairs by our casualties. They are screaming at us that they couldn't breath.
We try to reassure them.
Stay with me!!
We are going to get you out!!.
Please stay with me!

Down and down we go... I hear a shout from behind me from my partner, the female casualty has become unconscious. My partner is now having to drag her down alone. I can't help at this time.

Two floors later we find another crew making their way out. One of them is carrying a little girl. I hand off my casualty to the firefighter who has a free set of hands, please take him out I shout, we'll be right behind you.
I turn to go but with that he hands me something I'd not seen initially.
Wait!
What!
Im handed a firefighters helmet!
This can't be good!!
Why does he have this?
Where is the firefighter it belongs too!

As I turn round and go back up one turn of the stairs I see him.
He's missing his helmet but he's with my BA partner.
He's got no helmet and no breathing apparatus.
Are you ok? Where's your BA set!?

He's given it to a casualty.. he's coughing as he tells us, he's delirious from the heat and smoke.

Still he tries to help carry the casualty! Helping others is still his first thought.

I shout at him.. Get down those stairs, get down to the bridgehead!
I take the casualties arms my BA partner has her legs.
We start down again.. round and round we go, hear the noise of crews working hard around us. There are still crews going up the stairs past us.

My BA pre alarm starts going this off.... this means one thing.. my air is running low.. similar noises are all around me.

Turning a corner we see a white helmet, it's a watch manager in the stairwell we've reach the bridgehead.
It's moved again. It's now up on the 5th floor.

My partner takes the firefighter with no BA in to the 5th floor lobby to administer Oxygen.
The watch manager takes the casualties legs from her.
Walking backwards down another 5 floors and finally I'm on the ground floor but I can't stop yet. I hand the casualty over. Then I'm off back up those stairs to the 5th floor.
Reaching entry control, now finally I can shut my set down and I take my mask off. Hoping for a deep breath of clean air...
ah nope!!
It's not clean air in here, I suck in lung full of light ish smoke. It makes me cough and retch.
Still It's clean enough to breath I guess. It's better than the air higher up.

With my tally collected I find my BA partner. She's with the firefighter we found and she's administering him Oxygen. We're off. We take him down and out with us.

As we get outside we are desperate for a drink of water, collapsing on the grass by the leisure centre. Someone see us and throws us some water I drink it straight down, its gone so fast it barely touches the thirst I have.
As I look up colleagues are all around us, tunics off their t-shirts soaked through with sweat, no one really able to talk.

All of us sat there looking at the building we've just come out of. It's worse now! The fire is everywhere and fierce!
It's hard to comprehend we were just in there.

We see a man in a high window trapped in his flat, we can hear the radio traffic. They know he's there but no one can get to him... but crews are working hard trying to help him.
He's there for a long time disappearing then coming back.

Slowly we catch our breath, we service our BA sets new oxygen cylinders on them we are ready to go again.

Recovering I go to find more water. At a cordon a woman pleads with me... crying and pushing her phone at me she says she has her friend on line.
Her and her baby are trapped on the 11th floor.
It throws me... I struggle to reply.. I look across at a police officer I point at him and tell her he will take her to the people who will take her friends information and pass it on to the crews inside.
Stay on the phone with her I say!
Tell her not to give up!
We are still coming.
We are still getting to people I promise.

No time to stop, don't get distracted. I've got to get a drink and get back to it.

Time passes quickly, some people are given jobs while others have to wait to be tasked with going back inside.

Some time later I couldn't say how long we are all grouped together waiting for news. A senior officer is telling us he knows we've already broken all the policy's we have. He knows the risks we've taken but thats not enough we are going to have to take more! There are still a lot more people who need us.
He says he's going ask us to do things that would normally be unimaginable. To put our lives at risk even more than we already have.
Everyone is looking round at each other listening to this officer try to motivate us into action again. He didn't need to though
we are ready for it! This is what we train for.
Those colleagues who a little while ago were collapsed and broken from on the grass from their first entry are back up, ready, stood in full kit waiting for their orders to go in again.

Now lots of things happened during the time I was outside. Some people were rescued alive, some unfortunately weren't. People jumped, a mother threw a baby from a floor high up, caught by a complete stranger arms just so she could get it away from the fire.

All this time hour after hour my colleagues were pushing themselves above and beyond what you'd think was humanly possible.

As the light broke and time passed we knew it had gone to make pumps 40, and that 20 relief trucks were ordered. So as the trucks with fresh crews arrived those of us that were there early on were starting to be swapped over. We were told to find our crews and go to the debrief but no one was wanting to leave each and every one willing to give more, but eventually we all had to leave the scene.

So 19 hours after starting our night shift the members of Red Watch made it back to the Fire Station.

Time to try and rest.. in 4 hours time we will be on duty again.

We hand over the appliance to the Blue Watch. Tell them what equipment we known to be missing.

I swapped out my dirty fire gear so I'm ready for 8pm, I might as well do it while I'm still covered in sweat and dirt.

I shower, but the smell of smoke won't go away. I wash three times and give up.

I'm beyond tired but I cant sleep.. there's to much going on in my head.

I think I need a drink!

I go out to the local pub with colleagues. I order a shandy, I'm back on duty soon.
As we sat with our drinks we don't really talk. Sitting in almost complete silence, each lost in thought trying to begin to process everything that's happened. Yet we are aware of the people all around us laughing and joking with friends, enjoying their drinks in the sun. Oblivious to what we've seen, unaware of what we've been doing all night.

I've no appetite but I know I need to eat. We go to and get some food but it's hard to concentrate.

We go back to the fire station, there's no time to get home. I find a bed in the dorm room and eventually manage 45 min sleep before I wake up. Wash my face, get dressed and I'm ready to report for roll call, ready to do it all again.

---

Now... this is only a small part of the things we saw and did on that night. Other stories will obviously come out but some won't. Some will be kept by firefighters and the other emergency services hidden away deep down in their thoughts, never to pass in to words, never to be told to a living soul but always there, those emotional scars will forever be there.

Badbadbunny · 28/06/2017 08:42

A BBC report as to how the building regulations were circumvented. It seems guidance from the professional bodies, i.e. the Building Control Alliance (BCA) and The National House Builders' Council (NHBC) basically told the architects, building inspectors, etc., how to use workarounds and loopholes, so despite being banned by regulations, the flammable cladding continued to be in daily use.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40418266

LordTrash · 28/06/2017 09:21

Watching Victoria Derbyshire special report on Grenfell right now, and I'm in tears.

One survivor has described being in a tiny hotel room with his wife and 2 children - if they want water to boil, they have to get it from the toilet! Awful! What these people have been through - they'll never get over it, ever. Is clean water too much to ask?

cathf · 28/06/2017 09:50

Lord, how can that be? Surely if the room has a toilet, it also has a hand basin?
Or does he mean the toilet as in the bathroom?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 28/06/2017 09:57

Unless hand basin is not working. Or is one of those awful hole in the wall things that are very often broken.

Lucysky2017 · 28/06/2017 09:59

Dreadful praticularly as if most of our houses burned down our buildings insurance would put us up in a hotel. A neighbour had subsidence, eventually ( years) the insurers accepted it and the insurers paid to rent them a similar 4 bed detached 2 streets away for about 9 months whilst the works took place. That is a usual insurer obligation under buildilngs insurance policies and remember some GT residents owned long leases so were basically owner occupiers - not everyone was a council tenant.

LordTrash · 28/06/2017 10:01

Not sure what he meant by it, but those were his words. Wonder if it's one of those one star hotels with communal washing facilities?

HandbagKrabby · 28/06/2017 10:50

badbunny that BBC report is shocking. What's the point of having A standards for things and then cheerfully signing off a C grade product strapped to a B grade one? Arseholes.

cathf · 28/06/2017 10:55

It could be, I suppose.
It just sounds like one of those emotive statements that no-one questions because it is what well-meaning people want to believe.
The trouble is that because no-one questions it, it becomes accepted fact.

LordTrash · 28/06/2017 11:05

I don't know, cathf.

What isn't open to interpretation at all is that nobody from K&C Borough Council turned up to address the concerns of survivors. Yet again.

Also not open to interpretation is that survivors need and deserve to be heard.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 11:32

Charges including misconduct in a public office and gross negligence manslaughter have just been announced for Hillsborough against 6 people.

The nature of the charges is worth commenting on, in this thread, but it really really needs to be parked there.

Before anyone even makes a comment:

fleetstreetfox‏*@fleetstreetfox*
6 people charged over #Hillsborough. David Duckenfield facing 95 charges of manslaughter. DO NOT prejudice trial by tweeting unwisely.
Contempt of court is when there is a substantial risk of serious prejudice to a trial, eg by making it impossible for a fair jury trial.
That can include any kind of publication about the case. Twitter is publishing. Unless you have a lawyer to hand, DON'T DO IT. #Hillsborough

So is MN.

cathf · 28/06/2017 11:40

I agree LordTrash, I think it is completely bizarre that K&C did not turn up to help.
However, the council insist they had people on the ground on the night it happened and ever since, so who do you believe?
Obviously this thread and the vast majority of the public will not believe the council.
All I am saying is there is a lot of rumour and scaremongering out there, and no-one is questioning anything, as the accepted agenda is now the council (and the Government) are shit, basically.
We don't have open minds anymore, we just want to listen to people who think the same as we do, and social media gives us the ability to do this.
There was someone interviewed on R4 yesterday who said she did not believe anything she read in MSM and get all of her news from Facebook, as it's the only way she learns the truth.
The truth, of course, according to her beliefs.
I find it alarming and a cause for concern.

Lucysky2017 · 28/06/2017 11:54

Also under the Blair government they changed the law. Before then your local fire station did building fire safety instpections/checks and signed off on them. Then Labour decided to privatise it and you got all kinds of corrupt locals with skin in the game signing off on it rather than firemen who say burned individuals month in month out and had a much better understanding of the risk of fire.

We should go back to the fire service doing fire inspections and building sign offs.

LordTrash · 28/06/2017 12:07

I believe the many different sources I've been reading and watching (facebook not included!) - none of whom have had a word of praise for the council.

cathf · 28/06/2017 12:09

I think the most likely outcome of the Grenfell inquiry will be a series of unfortunate circumstances led to the disaster.
People baying for someone to blame are just being silly and getting carried away with the emotion of it all.
Ask yourself: Why would a council deliberately risk its tenants' lives by fitting panelling they knew was dangerous?
The panelling has been found on buildings all over the country, so it clearly was in wide use - why would the council question its use?
Of course, there is a large contingent of people who will only be happy if someone is blamed - that's why I said upthread that there will be more riots when the inquiry does not come back with the verdict people want.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 12:17

Why would a council deliberately risk its tenants' lives by fitting panelling they knew was dangerous?

Negligence is also covered by law. There are other issues here relating to fire safety not just panelling.The panelling did fail some safety tests. The fact that lots of other people were also ignoring this, may or may not be relevant. The council were warned about the flammability of panels regardless of what others were doing. The council also has a duty of care to plan for a serious emergency situation and they might be in breech of that.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 12:23

Theresa May has just said this at PMQ:

Alan White‏*@aljwhite*

May says the cladding on Grenfell Tower was "not compliant" with building regulations: "Real questions as to how this has happened"

The building regulator was signing it off though. Why? Should they have? (Answer to this is obviously no but why were they?) Was this encouraging of circumnavigating directly responsible for dangerous panels across the country? (Again the answer must almost certainly be yes) If so, should the regulator face questions or even criminal charges? Was it negligent?

Lucysky2017 · 28/06/2017 12:24

It's dreadful and also complicated. Germany has found a building with the cladding on.
Apparently that cladding needs supports between the cladding and walls which are a fire proof type which may not have been used but it may have been specified wrongly so what was provided was what was in the specification and it possible it was lawful so the rules themselves might have been at fault.

Then if had there been more fire doors it woudl not have spread that is another issue.
One Camden block is missing 1000 fire doors. Most of us have been in buildings over the last 30 years with those very heavy fire doors you find hard to push your way through so very often as you m ove around the building in offices all over the land and they should never be propped open with fire extinguishers or kept open as we all know you need them closed as a fire prop yet the Camden block lacks 1000 such doors!

cathf · 28/06/2017 12:46

No Lucy, that's not quite right. All of the Camden blocks together (I don't know how many there are) are missing a total of 1000 fire doors.
Obviously it's shocking that any fire doors were/are missing, but exaggerating things does not make it any more shocking and makes further claims lose credibility.
Redtoothbrush, maybe the Duty of Care line will be the one pursued rather than negligence?
I am not a lawyer, but I don't understand how one council could be deemed negligent for using the same materials that were in widespread use throughout the UK? Would all of the councils be deemed negligent?

Lucysky2017 · 28/06/2017 13:13

Sorry, I just read the 1000 and thought it just affected 4 large tower blocks. We certainly don't need exaggeration. Things are bad enough as they stand.

I think we are moving too many people out too quickly when other measures are possible instead and not moving them into suitable alternatives and probably pretending they will be back in 6 weeks when I bet it takes 3 months plus!

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 13:18

Cathf, there is a specific charge 'gross negligence manslaughter' which someone is up for in connection with Hillsborough. All those other councils could be negligent, but because it has not resulted in death they wouldn't be potentially responsible for gross negligence manslaughter. Which is why I think that particular charge being pursued by the CPS particularly relevant to this thread and perhaps does answer your question.

I think that it could be not just the council / management company that could be in the firing line for this. What is the remit of the building regulator? To keep people safe? If so, why were they encouraging people to get around fire safety issues and signing things off as safe when they were known to be a fire risk?

I suspect its about establishing where legal responsibility for things lie. It could well be with multiple agencies and organisations both public and private sector.

I am also not a legal expert but the law in this country is logical in its principles and its thinking even if its detail is complex. I am generally fairly good for a layman and do have a decent general knowledge for the law. I wish I had studied it in retrospect.

From what has been said so far, I do think you can see the potential of how this could be pursued. I might well be wrong, but the decision to prosecute under this law is potentially promising even though other bits of news filtering out about Grenfell that look like the potential for a cover up is also there. You have to hope that the example of Hillsborough creates a precedent in establishing a public interest in even trying to prosecute under this particular law (The CPS brings charges if they think there is enough evidence to make a case and it is in the public interest to bring a prosecution). Perhaps what is more important now with regard to , is what evidence there is.

The offence requires that the prosecution service have to prove that there is a duty of care from the organisation to people and that there has been gross negligence that has occurred in that duty. The standard here is very high and would require some very damning evidence. In the case of Grenfell, the more you hear and the more evidence that seems to appear, the stronger the potential for this charge being used might be.

I've just seen on BBC news that the charge was considered for several bodies but they were not brought against them because the passage of time meant that these authorities had more or less ceased to exist having changed ownership / management etc. This shows that such a charge is potentially applicable to multi groups and that responsibility does not necessarily rest with a single organisation. Again this is potentially promising for a legal case relating to Grenfell.

I'm sure that lawyers will be looking at the significance of the Hillsborough charges with interest.

Anyway just seen this:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-tory-councillor-victim-tony-devenish-conservatives-write-letter-a7811756.html
Grenfell Tower fire: Tory Councillor tells victim sat metres away to send him a letter: 'He can write to me directly'

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 13:31

A nice and simple explanation of Gross negligence manslaughter from this website

Gross negligence manslaughter is a form of involuntary manslaughter where the defendant is ostensibly acting lawfully. Involuntary manslaughtermay arise wherethe defendant has caused death but neither intended to cause death nor intended to cause serious bodily harm and thus lacks the mens rea of murder.Whereas constructive manslaughter exists where the defendant commits an unlawful act which results in death, gross negligence manslaughter is not dependant on demonstrating an unlawful act has been committed. Gross negligence manslaughter can be said to apply where the defendant commits a lawful actin such a way as to render the actions criminal.Gross negligence manslaughter also differs from constructive manslaughter in that it can be committed by omission.

A more serious and less easy explanation from the CPS can be found
here

Gross Negligence Manslaughter

This is where the death is a result of a grossly negligent (though otherwise lawful) act or omission on the part of the defendant. The law in respect of this has been clarified in the case of R v Adomako (1994) 3 All ER 79 where a four stage test for gross negligence manslaughter known as the Adomako Test was outlined by the House of Lords:

The test involves the following stages:
a) the existence of a duty of care to the deceased;
b) a breach of that duty of care which;
c) causes (or significantly contributes) to the death of the victim; and
d) the breach should be characterised as gross negligence, and therefore a crime.

Can you see why this particular charge jumps out for Grenfell?

cathf · 28/06/2017 13:40

Absolutely I can see how this would apply to Grenfell, thank you.
I am still concerned that some think heads should roll and seem to genuinely believe that this has been deliberate though.
That's why I think there will be accusations of a cover-up at the enquiry.

HelenaDove · 28/06/2017 13:48

cathf there is the small fact that the Grenfell tenants were ignored beliitled and then threatened with malicious legal action unless they STFU about fire safety.

Its all there in the grenfell action group blog. And the residents said the councils response in the direct aftermath was non existent.
I think there is too much of a determination to keep on disbelieving the tenants . And minimising their fears before the fire.

HelenaDove · 28/06/2017 13:50

Not deliberate.............more of a disdain for the tenants.