London Fire: Grenfell Tower thread five

[RhythmAndStealth]

RIP

Five victims officially named
At least 79 victims expected, possibly more
Many displaced and struggling

To all those affected and all those helping

Thread four
Thread three
Thread three contains links to threads one and two.

Saucery I can only go on what dp tells me as I am not a builder, I just do the admin.

He says that anyone with any experience i fireproofing would know that the methodology of those boards wouldn't be fireproof. Fitting firebreaks is standard in any type of build. And reputable, time served tradespeople will ask for specific drawings to show where they are, what 'burn' time they are working to and it should be tested.

Dp does new builds and refurbs and the testing should be the same. They build for noise, air and fire and all should be tested. Final sign off used to be the Clerk of Works from the building and planning department of the council but he thinks this might have changed recently.

Also material manufacturers will sometimes only issue their guarantee if it is inspected in situ by a representative from their company. And they might specify certain fixings be used. I think British Gypsum for instance will only allow their fixings to be used.

In short lots of people from the fixers upwards should and would have known.

The NY times article is very succinct. It feels like we're still under the impression that the U.K. Is the best of the best, whilst the rest of the world quietly gets on with being better.

I cannot believe after everything that has happened, in Camden they are expecting residents to pay for their own hotels. Can you sue the council?

I'm as lay person as they come but I thought that the people fitting the cladding would be aware it wasn't right what they were being asked to do. It's hard enough being a whistleblower at the best of times, if you're employed on a day rate or similar and you've no other work I can see how hard it would be. Individuals shouldn't be in that position.

One thing I will say about the people on the ground installing it, is that so many tower blocks have this cladding - it could be that the first time they were asked to do it questions were asked, assurances were given that it 'complied with building regs' etc and then by the time you've done a couple - what are you going to do? You're not just whistleblowing a dodgy foreman (hard to do but people will) but questioning an entire industry, government, building regs - I can see with the weight of that against you you might sigh and say 'well I don't see how it's right but it's how it is I suppose' and get on with it.

Particularly if you go home, do your research, see the issue has been raised by senior safety experts and they have been ignored. In that situation, all you are doing by 'whistleblowing' is pissing into the wind and asking for your contract not to be renewed.

That block in Bethnal green was not long refurbished I think.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tensions-mount-as-residents-refuse-to-leave-unsafe-camden-tower-blocks-a3572651.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/25/camden-evacuation-refuseniks-urged-to-go-so-fire-safety-work-can-start

The two Shelter board members who just quit.

Two board members of the housing charity Shelter, including its chairman Sir Derek Myers, have resigned amid reports of internal disquiet over the organisation’s allegedly muted response to the Grenfell Tower fire.

Myers is a former chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea council, which owns Grenfell Tower, while trustee Tony Rice is chairman of Xerxes Equity, the sole shareholder in Omnis Exteriors – the company that sold the cladding used in the tower.

IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 4h4 hours ago
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and a man who took the rubbish out, children at home, was also blocked from entering #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation #GrenfellTower
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 4h4 hours ago
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I had nowhere to go, my cat locked in the flat, some elders were blocked from entering #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation #GrenfellTower
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 4h4 hours ago
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they hired security people, not police nor fire dept. to block all residents from entering #ChalcotsEstate #camdenevacuation #GrenfellTower
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IZAC TSAI‏ @izac19 4h4 hours ago
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I was blocked out of my own flat last night, #ChalcotsEstate #Chalcots #GrenfellTower #camdenevacuation

Canden resident forced to throw away £150 food delivery due to evacuation.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/residents-told-must-leave-fire-10684432#ICID=sharebar_twitter

The state of the temp accomodation a tenant was sent to.

"She said: "When I entered through the door I could see wires hanging out the fuse box, there was broken glass in the front door, there was an unsafe window, a broken boiler in the kitchen and a dirty, filthy, faulty cooker.

"I thought it was some sort of joke, I was just appalled"

Confirmed by Camden Council. Tenants are having to fork out themselves and be reimbursed by the council later.

Gillagain‏ @gillagain 1h
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Replying to @camdentalking
Can u confirm that residents who have not yet been offered accommodation & had to find their own hotel will be reimbursed for the expense?
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Camden Council‏Verified account @camdentalking 1h
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Hi Gill, yes they will. Make sure to get an invoice from the hotel. Latest info & FAQs also on our website here: news.camden.gov.uk

The NY times article is very succinct. It feels like we're still under the impression that the U.K. Is the best of the best, whilst the rest of the world quietly gets on with being better.

^
This

What's come as a shock to many, is that regulations are so slack and out of date in this country. I'm not sure if this is ignorance or arrogance on behalf of those responsible or just an overwhelming desire to save money or both. I think that we've all been fooled by the idea that everything is overregulated with health and safety 'gone mad' everywhere with fancy signs and high-viz jackets but things are clearly not as they seem. We are clearly not the best and the safest and maybe it's time to get our head out of the sand and look at the experience and best practices in other countries.

If any Camden tenants lose wages due to this evacuation and the problems with logistics it causes will their rent/council tax be waived.

Tenant Roger Evans was just interviewed on BBC News Hes refusing to leave and hes been told that the works will now take up to six weeks.

Are they expected to keep on paying rent as well as having to pay hotel bills upfront.

Camden will be making a huge claim against Rydon so I imagine they'll sanction just about any reasonable claims from the residents. It was done under PFI via Rydon, so I imagine that Camden will also be claiming breach of contract to terminate the PFI and take it over themselves.

Josh Bourne‏ @JoshBourne9 1m1 minute ago
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@SkyNews Lawyer advises residents to cooperate with @camdentalking #camdenevacuation, as they may have to pay court costs if they refuse

Multiple politicians now claiming the death toll is being covered up. I am sceptical but i have heard the eyewitness who claimed they saw quite a few jumping when considering a day after only six bodies were said to have been taken away from the scene does puzzle me.

Thing is Badbunny a lot of residents wont be able to afford to pay out upfront and then wait for months and months to be paid back.

BBCNews were a bit victim blamey towards the tenants who wont leave. None of this is the tenants fault yet it is ALWAYS ALWAYS tenants who have to pay the price.

They are apparently giving tenants £20 a day for food in the hotels.

Social housing and PFI This article is from 2010 and mentions the Chalcott estate.

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/social-housing-pfis-have-wasted-millions-in-london-6486668.html

What an absolute shambles. How the hell are people supposed to pay up front for hotel accommodation? And £20 a day for food is a bloody disgrace. Appalling.

YY Heman £20 a day for food in London isnt going to touch the sides?

Comment from DH. "Is there asbestos present. Is this the reason they have to move out"

OMG BBC News just mentioned tenants not moving may drag out the cost to the taxpayer.

A. those tenants are taxpayers too.

B. its victim blaming.
C. Less than two weeks after Grenfell we are back to demonising tenants AGAIN!

Apparently one rumour spreading is that 300 bodies were found on the stairs alone by the firefighters. That I do not believe.

Where is your DH thinking the asbestos might be Helena? Our LA had a massive programme for removing asbestos from tower blocks. It was used to box off pipework, line cupboards, where the whole lot runs up through the building, when they were built, as a fire retardant. They did it with a proper removal plan and no decanting of blocks.

I think he was just guessing.

I saw a comment somewhere about gas pipes disturbing the compartmentalisation?