In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

That should say 'though' not Thomas go!!

I absolutely understand the protocol and professional standards of the police for accuracy. Yet the slow painstaking pace of the investigation is creating a vacuum in which chinese whispers and conspiracy theories emerge, which is just as damaging to the narrative of events and the grief of the community. I wish there was some way the police could address this damage without compromising their integrity. I do think they're doing a fantastic job in communications to the public/media, but in this age of fast moving social media and "truther" movements, this vacuum needs to be acknowledged.

Rumours. As in Chinese whispers. As in 'well I heard from my sister's brother's uncle's mate who knows a fireman'. As in 'some people who are not prepared to give their own details to the media'.

Also, do these people know the contents of these body bags. Yes body bags. But is that full complete bodies, or bits of bodies? Which do you think is more likely under the circumstances? Do you think that the police will be able to say above certainty how many bodies they have if its the latter?

Now say they come out and say "we have 42 bodies" only to find they have less than 42 because they are parts of the same person, then further down the line they get problems from the families desperate for their loved ones remains. They have had their hopes raised only to be let down. The police simply can not do that.

This HAS to be done by using evidence leading the investigation.

By all means ask questions but also ask about the possible motivations that mean the police are behaving in a reasonable way as much as thinking about motivations that they are behaving in a dubious way. That's really thinking critically.

I understand now.

So the missing figure will list 1 (Bob) but not the other five. This is why the list will probably go up when evidence of Bob's 5 friends is found.

Yes that's true as well. I'm sure I've read an account of someone being on the phone saying they were in the bathroom as it was the only room left free from fire. Sadly wood walls are no defence from fire

Another great post red

I would imagine that at this point, x bodies in the higher up building is pretty much just x barks by the sniffer dog. It's gonna take a lot of forensic work to give an exact number, not just getting in there.

And re the stud walls coming down, when a room burns everything that was in that room ends up on the floor.

With regards to "42 people in one flat"- neighbours went into each other's flats to escape the fire/ smoke (and possibly were there anyway to be social), so 42 (or probably a lower number) might be all the residents of one floor who are known about, just they were all in one flat and not in 6 separate ones.

Red my source is good. It doesn't mean we believe in conspiracy. It means people are leaking information. 170 plus bless them all. That was Friday.

Looking at the video footage, the intensity of those flames meant incinerator temperatures. So, on many floors it will be a challenge to determine exact details.
But why is it worse at the top?

Yes, the 42 people in a room rumour, if true, was probably established as a relatively safer refuge which the fire service didn't have time to get back to

With regards to pipes in corridors, they weren't gas pipes exploding or firefighters wouldn't have been able to be going up the stairs rescuing people. And actually the access to the stairs (albeit full of smoke) kind of indicates to me that the interior of the building was doing its job- the flats were burning, but the stairs were not.

Or they could have been in one room to access Fire brigade help from a side they thought was safer/nearer rescue.
Lots of reasons why that might be the case and even more important that the emergency services are given chance to uncover that narrative with slow and painstaking investigation.

I guess the closer it is to the top, the more able the fire was to burn unrestrained. Fire hoses reached so far up, and fire personnel another height, but some had to burn til it burned out.

It would kind of make sense though. Let's just hope that, if true, they found some tiny bit of comfort through being with others, as opposed to alone.

I'm sure you think your source is good. But if its so good, why is that information not being made public?

Ask the questions about why that is the case. There are many answers that do not involve it being a conspiracy to suppress numbers.

This does not stop the ability and the need to talk about the issue that people might well have been in that building who should not have been for whatever reason and that the authorities have no way of knowing who was in that building when perhaps they should do for safety reasons.

It might well be the case that 170 people died. If that is the case, the evidence will lead to it, or the police will say they think the figure is much higher than now because SOMETHING won't match up. Even if its just one body without a name.

Right now, I don't think even the police can really be sure of it though and they are erring on the side that whilst they expect the death toll to rise they have also said they don't think it will raise significantly more which 170 would represent.

They must also have reason and confidence to state that.

'Rumours. As in Chinese whispers. As in 'well I heard from my sister's brother's uncle's mate who knows a fireman'. '

OK, but I tend to believe someone I know directly who has personally spoken to several firemen.
The rumours close to source seem to be pretty consistent re the numbers and certain very sad things they have seen.
I don't think there is an evil conspiracy going on but it does look like there has been a deliberate choice to hold back on some of the information, probably for good reason but I understand that it is being felt by people on the ground as prolonging the pain.

Fast question but it's worrying me

Why are resident living on and in government handouts when millions have been donated ?

Who is managing this money and ensuring people are NOT reliant on hand outs

The whole point of donating is to help people and I have not seen one thing about how these funds are to be managed and audited . And who decides how it's allocated .

If I mistaken apologies

I really appreciate this thread by the way

To all of you thanks for talking and sharing data it's helping me
Process this

I also agree that they can't do a faster job of counting and many many people have not been reported and maybe never will be

But if its so good, why is that information not being made public?

Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? The FB and police and whoever else is running this show now, have very good operational (and tactful) reasons for releasing what they are doing, and when they do so. But what a firefighter says off-the-record to his close circle is a different matter. It would be highly unprofessional to "release those details to the media." They have to toe the official line.

And of course I don't expect anyone on an anonymous internet forum to take what I might post as gospel. But I too know that my source is good, and there are other things I'm not passing on, anonymous or not.

I just watched a few days old channel 5 news clip on youtube they said (amongst other things) that approx 77 households had been given temporary accommodation. Has that number been reported before on any other channel? I don't believe I'd heard that anywhere else before now. Anyway, if true that would bring the number of survivors up considerably.

There would be no point in deliberately concealing the figures except if not known. We were informed that the death toll was 21 more than was known yesterday. The anger is no worse.

Information can't be made public yet for protocol. But this isn't new. If I remember it the awful Manchester attack relatives were sending SM requests for information many days after

And these were people who had all been reported missing quite quickly. It sounds for grenfell at a certain point within weeks they will announce the true figure.

Also the Borough market attack the Spanish government complained to ours about the time taken to recognise one of their citizens had been murdered

Again information was drip fed. I don't know why but it seems this is the way our protocol works

The anger is no worse.

Exactly. Because they reported a figure that was less than people feared. But if they'd come straight out and said "170," things might have been different.