In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

The issue will be that some people will have been subletting or having people to stay in a room etc. Also homeless squating etc. Not abnormal in cities and probably why the police are asking for people who escaped but are not legal or have other issues to come forward.

They probably have bodies and zero way of identifying.

They may never ever be identified. They are the hidden in our society. Not on a rent book. Don't have bank accounts.

I've said before that I heard it is over 170. From a source on the ground

I'm going to hazard a guess that there could have been a fair number of illegal immigrants in there. If you think of the number of people at, say, Calais who, when interviewed, say they're heading to England because they have an uncle or a cousin here... it's quite unlikely, if they make it across, that they're going to declare themselves to the council when they move in with that uncle. Or to a doctor or dentist. So, there will possibly be a number of bodies found for whom there will be no paperwork as, officially, they don't exist.

X-post with conned.

I understand all of that. But if people know there are 200 other people in there, why do they not have any information along the lines of "well, x was having a party so there were 30 people in their flat" or "I haven't seen John from level 3 on any of the lists" or "what about that homeless guy we saw sleeping on the stairs last week"
No information at all, just "there are 300 bodies", nothing else

Red - very good post. I agree with everything you've said.

I think the conspiracy theories have gained traction because there wasn't any kind of immediate list (as far as I am aware) of who lived in the building. People feel that the housing association, plus other official lists (electoral register, HMRC etc) should have existed and been checked against those injured and survivors and those reported missing - rather than what appears to be happening, which is guess work based on social media.

Hopefully I'm wrong and there is an official list of who lived there compiled from various sources which is being checked against. Obviously some people who lived there weren't there when the fire started and others had friends and family round, but it's a good starting place.

Plus the block's cctv.

Because there are ru.ours about body bags etc. Because I guess they don't actually know who they are

But knew they were there. So if there are 10 people living in a 2 bed flat they would know. But probably just kept their heads down. As did the people in the overcrowded flat

They may never ever be identified. They are the hidden in our society. Not on a rent book. Don't have bank accounts.

Yes, people might not be identified, but if unidentifiable remains are found, they will still be included in the figures.

But if you don't know at all that bob has five immigrants living with him, how do you know there should be additional bodies to allow for it? Either there are five bodies for those five immigrants you have seen in bob's flat, or as far as you know there's just bob.

Do you see what I mean?

Yes but not yet declared. That's the issue. As red said they have to try to do this first. At some point they will stop trying I guess and declare

A really simple example I remember from my student days. I and 4 others sub let a flat in S London. No one knew we were there. I didn't know my neighbours.

I am guessing the police also want the real tenants to come forward too hence the don't worry about anything illegal statement. The tenants and anyone staying there illegally. God it is so sad

So, forgive me if this is a crass question, are the published figures a total of actual bodies they've discovered?

So far.

Also, you don't necessarily have 1 body bag = one person. Each 'find' will have its own bag at the time it's found, it may be that 2 bags have parts of only one person in (sorry to be graphic but trying to explain!)

Bob, no sorry I don't understand-

If they go to flat x where Bob lived and find 6 bodies, 5 of which aren't Bob and who they cannot identify, they won't say 1 person died called Bob. They will say 6 people died, Bob and 5 more as yet identified people.

Octopus No. Just those that have followed protocol process so far. As per reds post

Figures are missing believed dead atm I do believe. So they could have literally seen 30 people bodies, but the list of 78 includes everyone they believe was in the building.

Poor old bob

I know burn, sorry I meant the community when they are working out the "true" figures.

Grenfell resident on itv news went to collect his £500 They said "wait 15 minutes and we will get the money to you" They went way......then came back and told him they had run out of money.

They then sent an envelope with £20 in it to his hotel in a taxi. This is STILL not being sorted properly nearly a week on!!!

(The ones that are being "kept from us")

Either just bob is on the list and you say, "hang on, he had a load of roommates, quick I'd better post a video on YouTube" or you say "oh no, bob is on there" and no more as you don't know about his illegal friends?

Agree, Rino, and that might explain one of the "theories" about scores of body bags having been seen.
But it doesn't explain the other tales from the ground. I'm inclined to believe those guys who are insistent that 42 bodies were found in one room, for instance, I'm afraid.
My friend's dh is a fireman whose team is operating there. He never tells her anything about the sorts of things he sees and experiences at work, but he did mention on Thursday evening that "loads" of people had jumped. This wasn't really mentioned by the media until much later and the number I've read is 15-20. Apparently, also, one of his colleagues was in hospital after a body landed on him outside the building.

Sorry, explaining my thoughts in words doesn't work sometimes

Not sure that is right Bob. Protocol is to establish identity and confirm. Perhaps the missing on the top floors have been taken into that number too. But if you have no one to report you?

he is in a hotel room with his young family. £20 sent in a bloody taxi.

Octopus yes I believe that is true. Poor poor people

octopus yes sadly I can believe that was well (Thomas go I'm erring more to t being 42 on one floor or one flat than one room).

My dad was a fireman all his working life (now retired). The things they have to witness are beyond our imagining.

Well, looking at those awful photos, the internal stud walls have come down, either through intense heat, or because the firemen pulled them down, which I believe is common practice in some fires. So, whole flats do look like single rooms.