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In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 17/06/2017 14:02

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5 Flowers
Khadija Saye, 24 Flowers
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23 Flowers

At least thirty people confirmed to have died Flowers

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified Flowers

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names Flowers

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care Flowers

Many people homeless and dispossessed Flowers

Many bereaved Flowers

Many traumatised Flowers

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
CaptainMarvelDanvers · 19/06/2017 17:09

Yes Day of Rage is something the SWP came up with. While I 100% agree that this is political and I understand people are angry, the SWP are using it to further their agenda which can often be batshit - they had a table up and running on Friday night protests. I'm a looney liberal but these guys are on another level.

The residents and community should be the ones deciding how to protest and people should support them not takeover.

BahHumbygge · 19/06/2017 17:11

But everytime there's a fire alarm in a large building, fire services are automatically called out, even if false alarm.

When I was at uni, fire alarms were deliberately set off several times in the middle of the night during one week, (in exam period no less Angry ) and the fire brigade attended every time. They were pissed off, we were pissed off, and I'm sure it would've led to people staying in their beds and dying if there had been a real fire following.

There should be a "smart" & phased evacuation system that detects the spread & trajectory of the fire. Or just simple sprinkler system that saves almost all lives. But as always that comes back to £££

UnderAPalmTree · 19/06/2017 17:17

bah the way it works in some countries is:-

  • fire
  • initial alarm only heard by ground floor/security etc for 1 or 2 minutes - security calls apartment: is your fire real (or checks it out in person)
  • yes fire is real/or the pre-alarm is not stopped (i.e. people with authority to switch off the pre-alarm are incapacitated) leads to automatic alarm in the whole building & emergency services being called.
  • full evacuation.

so this means no time wasted for false alarms/burnt toast/etc.

This system works.

BahHumbygge · 19/06/2017 17:27

"Stay in place" usually works too, as long as the building hasn't had its fire containment weakened by renovations and cladding. Sadly, I suspect there may be future loss of life in a towerblock due to a false alarm or minor fire, as residents rush to escape down narrow stairwells and trip in the stampede. As there was in canada which led to the SIP policy in certain contexts.

All blocks with a similar design & botched renovations need to come down really, but so difficult to do when there's such an acute housing crisis Sad

Rinoachicken · 19/06/2017 17:31

Bah agree 100%

SIP works and is safer - as long as the buildings integral fire protection has been compromised.

So the renovators either knew they compromised it and didn't care, or forgot to put it back, or were ignorant as to its importance in the first place. Or all of he above!!

HelenaDove · 19/06/2017 17:34

Nothing in particular Monkey Its a residents page for another HA just to give an example of what tenants put up with.

BBC have said they are doing a Panorama on Grenfell tonight at 8.30pm.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2017 17:34

If there are an additional 200+ people missing, who are they?

That's the question. If people are CONVINCED the number of dead is being supressed then someone knows something about these people. Yes there may well be people whose whole families died, but at the same time these people must have someone who knows who they are somewhere.

Alastair Reid‏*@ajreid* (BBC reporter)
So here's a quick thread about the conspiracy theories of media "suppressing" the #GrenfellTower death toll. It keeps getting brought up.
On Wednesday morning, while the fire still burned, we started a shared doc of any and all names of people reported missing.
This was built mainly from posters at the scene, eyewitness interviews and appeals on social media. The hard evidence we could gather.
By Wednesday evening we had 40+ names. By Thursday it was 70. Multiple journalists worked on this, in the newsroom and on the scene.
We only reported names we had double/triple sourced, to be as sure as possible that our reporting was accurate. We stayed silent on many.
By Friday, we had reported 54 names of those missing. The official police statement that day was 30, and "likely to rise".
Today, police said the number of dead or presumed dead is 79. Still likely to rise. No news outlets have reported that many names.
So now the media is playing catch up. And some outlets have got a few names wrong. This often happens in big, breaking news.
But journalists cannot just throw out figures of a death toll without verifying them. To do so would be highly irresponsible.
Everyone expects the figure, currently at 79, to rise. That is not in doubt. But this is not a "cover up".
This is ethical, responsible journalism. Journalism based on the evidence available. Anything more would just be guessing.
And good journalists don't guess. They report. Contrary to popular opinion, the vast majority of journalists care about the facts.
And the horrifying facts of what happened at #GrenfellTower are being reported, but only as and when they have been properly verified. /ENDS

The police have asked for people to come forward and report anyone missing if they have not done so, so far for any reason. They have asked people to declare themselves safe if they have not already done so and have tried to make it clear they are not interested in stuff like sub-lets / immigration status. In the absence of bodies and when they do find them, the absence of a formal identification, the police can't just say someone is dead / missing without some other form of evidence / information.

What the police will be doing is trying to make a list of who was living in each flat and then trace their whereabouts. Not do this stupid vague 'do the maths' thing. They will be doing it properly. They may well be privy to information the community / the press are not aware of. Because, well they are the police.

The media have tried to be responsible and not just wildly claim there are hundreds dead in the absence of names or other corroborating from more than one person that an individual lived in that building to avoid reporting potential lies which sadly we all know happens around events of this nature. If they did report things that were untrue they would lose their reputation and trust over other stories. Plus they risk stirring up even more anger and unrest from doing so.

So I'm going to ask the question the other way around to all the people screaming conspiracy:

WHAT EXACTLY would you have the media / police / fire do differently at this point? Bearing in mind they have a responsibility to the public to not say something that's complete bunkem. Getting to the truth, involves precisely this. You undermine it, by cutting corners and this tragedy is build on the very point that corners look like they might have been cut. Sadly getting to the truth in circumstances like this is a slow process. Would you like it rushed, which could jeopardise any potential criminal case that is pursued?

I'd really like to know what responsible action they have open to them?

People are aware that people are saying the death toll is higher. The media have reported anger that the community is not being told more and that they are unhappy with the police figures. That's not being suppressed is it?

This is very early days in an inquiry of this nature. Its too early on to say anything different. Many people pushing the theory are doing so with a certain tone that almost suggests they want the death toll to be higher.

There are lots of reasons worthy of discussion about why its so hard to establish who was in the tower which really do make you stop and think and very much supports the problems that those affected face. You don't need an even bigger number which is unverified and lacks evidence to do that.

Please do tell me what magical thing these agencies could do differently? I'd like to know, because its important to the debate. Pushing conspiracy theories helps NO ONE. Least of all victims.

BertieBotts · 19/06/2017 17:41

Two staircases isn't that much help in a building like this. Even if you had in theory, one for firefighters going up and one for residents coming down how the hell are you meant to stop panicking or even desperate people from using both to come down? You wouldn't send them back up and people don't read signs when they are panicking, if they could have even seen through the smoke. They also don't read signs if they think they know where they're going (this was one of the problems with the evacuation of Lakanal House.) You can't station someone at every floor telling people to use the other stairs. So they would still be clogged and it would still be dangerous and slow for firefighters to come up.

Double the speed of evacuation, if everyone had been able to get to the stairs, would still have been slow. If you want to be able to evacuate blocks of flats without danger of crushing and crowd surges - not workplaces or schools but homes - then you need enough stairs for every single resident plus potential visitors to come down at once, which is utterly impractical, you'd end up with more staircase than building. Even if you averaged it out and said OK let's get the equivalent of a 2 up 2 down and have one storey + 860mm width of stair for every two bedrooms, that still would have meant that Grenfell needed two six foot wide or four total staircases. Where would they put them?

The situation where multiple staircases is useful is when it's possible that one could be cut off from access. Because in that case it means people have another route of escape.

The defend in place strategy is sensible and does work but fireproofing MUST BE maintained as the highest importance and of course anything which bridges fireproofing must NEVER be installed. This is what a combination of decades of fire research and research of how people behave in disaster situations tells us. It's also how important buildings like hospitals where people can't safely be moved deal with fire alarms.

There has already been another tower block fire in London, thankfully contained as it should have been, where residents panicked and streamed out of the building. Luckily this didn't cause any problems and there were no injuries, but I think this disaster of management has the potential to leave a legacy which could well injure others in a crush type scenario as people understandably panic. (And it is understandable - I'd never stay in a burning building now, having seen this. Even though I'm saying myself that in some situations evacuation is more dangerous.)

HelenaDove · 19/06/2017 17:43

Someone in AIBU has posted pictures of the exposed pipework in Grenfell Tower post refurb. On page 21 and 22 of Aibu to be so angry with the gov about grenfell tower.

BahHumbygge · 19/06/2017 17:43

It does seem likely, but it's not clear from the news/narrative reports, that the fire containment systems weren't replaced. They should've been put back before each flat was signed off as completed. Absolutely criminal that this never happened (if this was the case). So emblematic of the byzantine buck-passing, subcontracting and penny pinching culture of the organisations responsible and the relationships between them. I hope Kensington town hall are well equipped with fire blankets as I bet those council shredders are overheating dangerously from working overtime.

HelenaDove · 19/06/2017 17:47

Its down at the bottom of this page. Sorry.......i cant do screenshots.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2956427-Aibu-to-be-so-angry-with-the-tory-government-regarding-grenfell?pg=21

MonkeylovesRobot · 19/06/2017 17:50

Please do tell me what magical thing these agencies could do differently? I'd like to know, because its important to the debate. Pushing conspiracy theories helps NO ONE. Least of all victims.

I am also interested in knowing the answer to this. RedToothBrush, that is an awesome post; thank you for sharing it.

Slimthistime · 19/06/2017 17:51

I live in a large block
I'm not sure how good sprinklers in the corridor would be.
Let's imagine someone fell asleep with a cigarette burning, I know the corridor alarms would go off but do sprinklers have that kind of sensor reach? Or would bedding, mattress etc be alight and fire out of doors before the sprinklers went off?

MonkeylovesRobot · 19/06/2017 17:52

Helena - please can I ask what you think is important about the uncovered pipes? Thanks for the link to the thread.

HelenaDove · 19/06/2017 17:52

Well i thought they HAD to be boxed in..

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 19/06/2017 17:53

The council could have organised the relief effort, they could have kept the residents up to date, they could have supported the survivors better, they could stay off the television blaming the residents of the block.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 19/06/2017 17:55

When I say residents, I mean residents of the immediate neighbourhood should have used the word community. Apologies!

Rinoachicken · 19/06/2017 17:57

Excellent post red

With the pipes, is t it that they take up space in the fire exit, because they stick out? Or that they are gas and so if they exploded it would take the only fire exit out of action? Possibly both?

HelenaDove · 19/06/2017 17:57

Captain Ive also seen horrendous victim blaming on other threads on here and elsewhere online.

Its becoming Londons Hillsborough with some people behaving in the same way Kelvin McKenzie did.

MonkeylovesRobot · 19/06/2017 18:00

"Well i thought they HAD to be boxed in.."

Oh, I don't know - they weren't in our old block.

BertieBotts · 19/06/2017 18:00

TBH, I don't know whether

BTW your link doesn't work for me because I have a different number of posts per page than you do. Could you give the timestamp?

BertieBotts · 19/06/2017 18:01

Gah!

I don't know whether being boxed in or not would make much difference because presumably the "boxes" would be wooden.

In face exposed pipes may be easier to locate a leak?

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 19/06/2017 18:03

I don't get why people just don't stop for a moment, think about what they are going say and have a little bit of empathy. I've seen awful things wrote online. People died, it should have been preventable.

BeyondStrongAndStable · 19/06/2017 18:05

"Not saying there aren't 300 people in there - I have no way of knowing!"

"Just look at the building and do the maths FFS. Then listen to the voices of the survivors and locals on social media."

"This was a towerblock housing families in one of the most desirable areas of London. Do you think all those flats were lying empty?"

I notice you didn't address my point of - if there are 200+ other people missing, who are these people. No one has given so much as one name that is being purposely left off the list!

lobsterface · 19/06/2017 18:14

sprinkles can be heat activated - they only come on in that room when it is on fire. Alarms systems however are smoke/similar activated which is why when someone sprays deodorant too near the detector the sprinklers don't come on.