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In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 17/06/2017 14:02

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5 Flowers
Khadija Saye, 24 Flowers
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23 Flowers

At least thirty people confirmed to have died Flowers

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified Flowers

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names Flowers

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care Flowers

Many people homeless and dispossessed Flowers

Many bereaved Flowers

Many traumatised Flowers

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 14:41

Rhythm Its been known about the dangers of this cladding since 1999.????? !!!!!!!

PigletJohn · 18/06/2017 14:45

statistically,

yes, I see "advisory" and "recommends"

But the chancellor said "prohibited"

PigletJohn · 18/06/2017 14:48

sorry, he said "banned"

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 14:52

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-tenner-survivors-volunteer_uk_5946510fe4b06bb7d273ba5f

Grenfell survivors being given £10!!

timeismovingon · 18/06/2017 14:55

I'm sure everyone knows this but more than one building/refurb company would have bid for this work. There are/will be a company/companies out there who would have highlighted the fire risk and quoted accordingly i.e. they would have quoted for the full extent of the work. For example they would have realised that it was important to look at the building as a whole and ensure weak areas such as pipes running around the building were properly insulated.

I expect it will come out that other companies who bid on this work knew this and quoted on it and that a cheaper quote was accepted as a cost cutting measure. In any event bidding like this would mean that whoever requested the work would have been made aware of the issues. There are 2 things here imo - that the building work met regulations and that the building as a whole met regulations/was safe etc.

Whilst there will be lots of shredding of paperwork going on I'm sure, there will also be lots of printing of emails etc showing that whoever made the decision KNEW what should be done.

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:01

Comment from fb.

"I saw a video yesterday, the lady being filmed was a resident who was being put up in a hotel. She needed money so she went to her bank where they refused to release funds due to her not having any proof of identity. She needed personal hygiene items for herself and her children but the local places where things are being donated and stored also needed proof that she was in fact a resident. A local lady who was trying to locate items for this woman went and purchased things out of her own money so that the family could get what they need. The items donated aren't necessarily going to where they are needed at the moment"

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:02

timeismoving. In a lot of cases it is the cheapest possible tender that is chosen.

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:05

If there is any shredding or deleting going on stuff can be recovered from hard drives cant it? Im not very tech savvy but surely its impossible to delete everything.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 18/06/2017 15:06

Helendover There is also a video going around where two locals are talking about the death count but they also mention that one of the survivors wasn't fed until they went to see them at a hotel.

I don't understand why the council have basically been missing.

TheWitchAndTrevor · 18/06/2017 15:06

HelenaDove

It's frightening no one knows where the £5 million donation money is?

The measly £10 is shockingShock

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:17

Sadiq Khan on BBC News now is saying that his experience and what hes seen and heard is a million miles away from what Paget Brown is claiming.

What is on social media bears this out too.

Witch + Trevor £10 buys you fuck all especially in London. Once deodarant sanpro shampoo has been purchased that tenner is gone. I also have seen that the hotels are only providing breakfast.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 18/06/2017 15:21

Recovery technology is always getting better but you can still manually destroy an hard drive.

Emails on the hand. I'm not sure what the set up is with the computers at councils but I assume they have their own servers? They must also have a way of keeping track and recovering emails in councils to prevent corruption.

TheWitchAndTrevor · 18/06/2017 15:22

£10 buys you fuck all anywhere!

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:23

Neigbouring homes around Grenfell have been told to return to their homes by TEXT even though there is no gas and no running water.

They really REALLY see tenants with absolute contempt.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 18/06/2017 15:24

A word of warning some of what they say may be disturbing, so please don't watch if you find that it would be too much for:-

BurnTheBlackSuit · 18/06/2017 15:27

Meanwhile, in the Queen's Birthday honours yesterday:

ORDER OF THE BATH

CB (Companion)

Peter Hugh Gordon Schofield (Redhill): Formerly director general Housing and Planning, Department for Communities and Local Government. For services to Housing and Planning.

CaveMum · 18/06/2017 15:34

To be fair though Burn, recipients are told about the Honours weeks before they are made public - my ex-boss got one a few years ago and later told us he'd been informed about 3 weeks beforehand.

Whilst I agree it's not great that he got something, the decision will have been made months ago. When I did the paperwork recommending my ex-boss for his Honour it took over a year before he actually received it.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 18/06/2017 15:34

I had a horrible feeling this would happen

Despite the millions of donations no one is getting access

Suprise suprise

There are no words are there really

So despite there being bags of items and millions donated these people are not accessing it

I am writing to my MP tomorrow

HelenaDove · 18/06/2017 15:37

That video............i have no words no words.

stopfucking............... i saw an article that was in the Guardian saying that some of the donated food is going off because its not getting where its needed in time.

Becca19962014 · 18/06/2017 15:43

Things online are surprisingly difficult to delete, there are sites for example which take copies of pages for archiving including those that are protected.

I know from an online group I'm on pages which later vanished have been photographed and stored.

One item deleted at 4am Wednesday for example was about how air was sucked through the external cladding to provide extra insulation, it would cut off in event of fire signalled by fire alarm when air would automatically stop circulating.

I know from experience that backups of information, including emails and other data in public sector are a guaranteed area for cost cutting.

timeismovingon · 18/06/2017 15:47

It's going to be hard to cover up that they didn't know. Emails, minutes, personal accounts of what the decision makers were told will be available.

The council should have been on the ground the minute this happened to co-ordinate the help and support. Not only weren't they there at the start they seem, from what's been reported, to be doing the absolute minimum and not taking control. It simply isn't good enough that they setup 3 centres. They should have been very visible and taken very obvious control of the situation. We pay their salaries and so much in council tax yet my opinion these days is that councils are there to serve themselves and not the public.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2017 15:47

There were fatalities from the 22nd floor but were misreported as from the 23rd. I hope I am wrong in thinking there are still questions to be asked about numbers.

The plans actually show the numbering/naming as Ground, Mezzanine, Walkway, Walkway + 1, and then 01 to 20 as being the residential floors. Signing in the building may have been different, lift numbering might have been different too. So it could just be confusion.

There does seem to be a hell of a lot of misreporting / confusion going on.

I have seen one missing person reported as living on the 20th floor, the top floor and the 23rd floor.

He did not get out. But his family did but were being treated in hosptial. That suggests that people were - at least initially - able to get out from upper floors if true. The reports do seem to be consistent that he was the only one from the family who is missing.

Then there is an apparent lack of any name being connected to the 22nd floor in the Daily Fail. Instead it attributes people mentioned elsewhere as living on floor 22 as being on the 20th and the 10th.

Then you have the case of the amazing baby catching from the 10th floor. Nothing is known of the fate of the rest of the baby's family. Did they make it out or is the baby one of those listed as missing by others whilst the family died because of the confusion? There is also reports of a 4 year old being through out of an 8th floor window and surviving. You have a family on the 20th floor being listed as missing, but the two youngest children were found in hospital. How did they get out? One of them could be the 4 year old mentioned above, but there was a slightly older one too. Is it conceivable they were thrown out too? And is 'the baby' actually the 4 year old and the reporting is confused?

The names of the missing circulating in the media total just under 70 from what I can see. These are named people.

So the assumption therefore has to be either some of these did get out and have not been crossed off the media lists or were not in the building in the first place. Or they are not on the police list because of the way the police are compiling their lists. They are likely to have made their initial missing list from people that they KNOW to have been in the building - as in were on the phone at the time of the fire.

It may well be that people who did not make such contact the police are aware of but are being treated slightly differently because of the lack of evidence from the lack of contact to say for certain they were there (I suspect this makes a difference in how quickly they can issue death certificates in the absence of bodies / formal identification). This group is likely to be treated slightly differently and will be more difficult for the authorities.

My suspicion is the numbers will go up, but I think it won't be before there is a lot of anger because of procedure. I suspect in some cases the courts will have to rule on the probability of people being dead rather than the police including them in their numbers. Adding to what is an already desperately awful situation to the community.

The thing is that locals are unlikely to think in these terms or be being given this type of information on how the police are compiling numbers or how things might have to be conducted due to procedure. Not least because of the monumentally poor communication and management of the situation by the local authority.

Nor are they likely to necessarily be aware of if and when some people have turned up. Particularly if survivors are being spread out across London, or Peterborough or Preston as has been suggested by some.

My point is that the media are definitely giving out conflicting information to other media. The police are giving out information which differs to what the media is speculating, perhaps with good reason, but if that is the case, its not being conveyed. The government is saying there is help and money and people will be rehomed in the same area but this is being reported as people being given tenners, the support on the ground not having access to money and people being survivors are being sent all over the place. And the council are just totally awol.

Its the perfect environment for conspiracies to be invented and become Chinese whispers spread far and wide.

That is primarily the product of poor emergency planning rather than anything more sinister. But most of that is inexcusable, preventable and frankly inhumane to those left hanging.

Becca19962014 · 18/06/2017 15:53

I'm not surprised about the donation issue, sadly. It will likely be the same with funds. There are parallels here with the disaster in Aberfan where lots of money was raised but never got to the families as no one could decide who got what. Donations made that never got where they should.

I'm not surprised about difficulties getting suitable housing. I won't stay above a first floor after being caught in a fire when young. I always check for safety wherever I am staying and I've walked out of hotels/b&b which I've not felt safe in, especially now I'm disabled.

On a related note - Yesterday I got a letter saying I'm banned from the housing register for three years, under any circumstances (including homelessness). Why? Because I refused a flat with single track access which is always blocked, a window which is permently sealed (the HA set the temperature) and I was to be put on the fourth floor (can't manage any stairs) - one stair case, no lift, 30 flats. The council say I can be carried upstairs into the flat and out in an emergency, I should pay for carer for everything I need to do outside and they want over £10,000 to make it adaptable. This is a brand new building, for people with physical disabilities. The previous one burnt down as the fire brigade couldn't get access to put the fire out. I appealed, my letter yesterday was telling me my appeal was rejected.

Becca19962014 · 18/06/2017 15:58

Sorry, the point of my situation is how a persons questioning of safety procedures to council (and HA) are ignored, not to make this about my situation.

Saucery · 18/06/2017 16:00

My God, Becca that is ^scandalous*!

As is so much of this thread. There was confusion about victims of terrorism in London and Manchester at first but it gradually became clearer due to a coordinated response and organisation. This just does not seem to be getting clearer and not because of the enormous amount of recovery and investigation work still underway.