In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

Thanks beyond

I hope that puts some of the conspiracy theories to rest.

StatisticallyChallenged - thanks.

Catminion, I dont think they are conspiracy theories. But people seeing that horrifc fire, seeing how many flats there were and working out how many people lived there, find it unbearably hard to believe that more people have tragically been unable to get out. As for the poster either on this thread or another that said it's almost as if people want there to be more people dead - what an incredibly outrageous and insensitive thing to say.

I have heard many in the last few days including the body bag one -i.e. That there are bodies lined up outside Grenfell leading to the tube closure.

On Mumsnet today that is is the fire service's fault for not turning up for two hours. Also that the fire started in a stairwell, the Council did it deliberately etc etc. Not helpful in apportioning blame where it is really due.

The lack of leadership and information from official sources doesn't help sadly.

I'm not saying it's the case on this thread, but there is a definite conspiracy theory school of thought taking hold online with people adamant that there are hundreds of bodies being hidden, secret mortuaries, d-notices, even people saying it was started deliberately as a form of social cleansing.

Social media can be great for sharing info but it's also highly dangerous and whilst I don't advocate believing everything you're told by "authorities", if I have a choice between believing the police saying "this is how many we know about and this is how many bodies we have located" and some random on social media claiming there's 200 bodies being hidden then I'm going with the police on this one. That doesn't mean there's not more dead who are unknown at this stage, but I don't believe that the police or fire service are hiding people.

Ive seen it reported twice now on BBC live feednow that the cladding used was actually not in accordance with UK Regs, (Greg Hands, the new Minister for London). Philip Hammond referred to it as having been 'banned' in the U.K.

I'm surprised it's not being reported more?

Minutes of KCTMO meeting 6th Feb 2016 which reported on the Adair Tower Fire

Looks very much like the Housing Management knew there were problems with the fire policy and that people didn't really have a lot of trust in it. The next question should have been 'Why?', not a rather dismissive 'Perhaps its not possible to stop people leaving a building in a panic during a fire!'. Well apart from it being well documented that people don't act in an expected way in a fire (See Kings Cross), maybe this suggests a lack of trust that needed exploring?

Their is also an admission here that the Housing Management that it relied on the Red Cross in Feb 2016 and that the housing association didn't have the capability to cope with a large emergency and had no intention to expand its capability and that it would have to rely on the Council in that event.

That begs a question. Did the Council have a plan themselves given that they were well aware that the Housing Association didn't have the capability. If not, why not?

There was already concerns about out of hours provision and that outsourcing stuff wouldn't really fill me with confidence. It just sounds like a massive bureaucratic nightmare in an emergency situation with no clear chain of command.

The Council were kicked out last night, and the Red Cross took over official control over some of the emergency efforts.

I'm staggered by the assumption from 2016 that the Red Cross should take ANY responsibility rather than the Council.

Hammond has also said this now:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html
Grenfell Tower cladding is banned in the UK, Chancellor reveals
The flammable cladding used at Grenfell Tower is not banned merely in the US and Europe, but in the UK too

Lammy has said this.

David Lammy‏*@DavidLammy*

Trust is low. Contractors are removing Grenfell details from their websites. What else are they deleting? Are the shredders running today?

There's stuff to throw at people here.

I am surprised they have not given an estimate of known survivors.
They rehoused 49 households from Grenfell (the rest were from nearby blocks) source: Guardian.

120 flats. No victims named from either the 22nd or 24th floors. Four floors were non-residential but do not know which, first floor was the nursery. Known fatalities have come from ten floors from the tenth floor up.

201 people accounted for (rescued/hospitalised/missing presumed dead). Some survivors got out themselves, were coming back from prayers or sharing meal elsewhere or were away.

If there were only minimal occupancy you have 225, then the numbers add up but full occupancy could be up to 442 and initial reports were higher. So where are they all? Did 241 people make it out themselves or were fortunate enough to be elsewhere?
Where are the other surviving households?

9/11 there were 1113 unidentified victims, nearly 40%.
They had families to report them missing.
The fact that Kensington council seemingly do not know how many were living in Grenfell means that there may be people already cremated with no one to speak for them. The missing list appears to be only made up of people reported missing by others on social media. What happens to those sub letting, those who are NC with family, those who were there sharing a meal? They just vanish?

I hope the number of fatalities does not go higher. No one would wish for that. But unless there is transparency with numbers, the figures they currently have of survivors, of how many people in total were rehoused compared with their last known estimated number of residents (based on tenancies/council tax/electoral roll) there will be speculation as to why not.

Regarding the speculation that fire fighters did not arrive until 2 hours after the blaze started, the fire fighter account I linked to above states that his crew arrived at 0120. However he does say that they had to park their appliance 4/5 streets away due to the parking of cars and the other appliances already in attendance.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-40301289

so 127 flats on 23 floors? ground/first/second were non-residential.
23rd floor had most fatalities.
There were fatalities from the 22nd floor but were misreported as from the 23rd. I hope I am wrong in thinking there are still questions to be asked about numbers.

From looking at the building layout shown in the press, the four non residential floors were the bottom four. So all of the top floors were residential.

"I've seen it reported twice now on BBC live feednow that the cladding used was actually not in accordance with UK Regs, (Greg Hands, the new Minister for London). Philip Hammond referred to it as having been 'banned' in the U.K."

This rumour was floated yesterday. They are probably suggesting there is something relevant in B1 of the Building Regulations for England. I don't know anyone who has been able to find it, and the people spreading the rumour have not substantiated it.

The rumour might or might not be true. It will be curious if it is, when the product has been so widely used.

The announcement was not published on the website of the Department for Communities and Local Government as it should have been, which is very strange.

www.gov.uk/government/announcements?keywords=cladding&announcement_filter_option=all&topics%5B%5D=all&departments%5B%5D=department-for-communities-and-local-government&world_locations%5B%5D=all&from_date=15%2F6%2F17&to_date=

""My understanding" says the chancellor.

Hardly definitive.

I think he said it was banned on buildings of this type, rather than banned outright. It's not clear exactly what the position is, but you'd expect him to have done his research before making an inflammatory statement like that, particularly in light of how sensitive the situation is.

Sorry -buildings of this height, I meant

GinSwigmore, I think the lack of info on the 24th floor might be a numbering issue. The Mail had a diagram showing all the missing and had the top floor numbered as 23 - not 24. There were missing people noted on that floor including the two italian architecture students who have been discussed quite extensively.

UK building numbering is often G, 1, 2 etc - 24 stories would only go up to floor number 23 IYSWIM. That's how the BBC has shown it.

The plans actually show the numbering/naming as Ground, Mezzanine, Walkway, Walkway + 1, and then 01 to 20 as being the residential floors. Signing in the building may have been different, lift numbering might have been different too. So it could just be confusion.

yes, the BBC website yesterday said:

""12:31

Now comes a statement from the Department for Communities and Local Government:

"Cladding using a composite aluminium panel with a polyethylene core would be non-compliant with current Building Regulations guidance.

"This material should not be used as cladding on buildings over 18m in height.

"We cannot comment on what type of cladding was used on the building - this will be subject to investigations."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008

So I immediately looked on the government website, but there was nothing.

Do large reference libraries still carry paper copies of regs like that?

Aside from everything else, the overcrowding is shocking. Families of 6 living in a 2 bed flat. That in itself is not acceptable.

Six members of the Choucair member lived in a flat on the 20th floor.
Sawsan Choucair fears they are dead. Her mother Sirria, sister Nadia and brother-in-law Bassam are missing, as well as children Zainab, Fatima and Mierna aged three, 10 and 13.

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20151113141044/www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/br_pdf_ad_b1_2013.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20151113141044/www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/br_pdf_ad_b1_2013.pdf

I said B1 earlier, probably in B4(1)

The chancellor may not know that the Building Regulations are for England, other parts of the UK have different rules, so he may have been mistaken in his understanding that there are UK regulations.

I see Jeremy Corbyn has been making my point today (on thread one or two) about airlines being able to get hundreds of hotel rooms at short notice.

Mrs glowglow that Mirror link MY GOD the heartlessness of that organisation.

They were ignored belittled then threatened and now they are dead.

Its horrific and this attitude is endemic . Other HAs do resort to this tactic. Not all of them but some do.

We are told that prevention is better than cure. But this doesnt seem to count when its social housing.

Paget Brown is on BBC News now Hes saying that residents complained Grenfell was too cold in the winter and too hot in summer and thats what the cladding was for. Hes also saying that tenants sat on the board. So why were tenants threatened with malicious legal action

Page 16 of this from the NHBC is interesting www.nhbc.co.uk/NHBCPublications/LiteratureLibrary/Technical/TechnicalExtra/filedownload,61351,en.pdf

It references BCA guidance note 18 link which states

"BCA technical guidance notes are for the benefit of its members and the construction industry, to provide information,promote good practice and encourage consistency of interpretation for the benefit of our clients. They are advisory in nature, and in all cases the responsibility for determining compliance with the Building Regulations remains with the building control body concerned. "

then

"Where a building exceeds 18m in height, AD B2 recommends (for the entire wall area both below and above 18m) either the use of materials of limited combustibility for all key components or to submit evidence that the complete proposed external cladding system has been assessed according to the acceptance criteria in BR135 - Fire Performance of External Thermal Insulation for Walls of Multistorey Buildings"

CaptainMarvel re your link He is also saying if they dont accept the offer given to them they will be classed as intentionally homeless. How is this even legal. One bloke has been sent to Preston.

Its absolutely despicable. DISGUSTING!