In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

I really don't know. As a society we seem to promote and reward people who lack empathy and actively avoid trying to understand others.

Yy Saucery I should have thought of that in the first place.

I think it's natural to gravitate towards Chat, Helena

Im going to ask in Site Stuff.

I have also reported your message Helena for consideration by MN.

Too many died.

Especially when you look at who is missing.

Its people who couldn't get out. They were either on the very upper floors or overwhelming elderly / disabled in some way / young / had young children.

That would also perhaps suggest something else too though. People who perhaps more likely to be living in an illegal bedsit etc are more likely to be single and young. And more likely to have been able to get out and less likely to have been willing to call the emergency services or wait for assistance. In short more able and more likely to have attempted to get out.

I just want to say thank you to you all for these calm informative threads. I hope they can go somewhere they don't disappear.

Albadross

Ive asked in Site Stuff.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2957061-Re-Grenfell-Tower-threads-Would-this-be-possible?watched=1

OublietteBravo I don't think that's what people are getting at when it comes to wanting to know numbers at all. Infact, I had to take a break from the news and these threads for a few hours. I tend to get overly emotionally invested in things and have to take a step back and assess what is driving me here. And, for me it's that I want to know more people are ok. Sounds silly and self indulgent considering I'm a 100 miles away but that is just how I feel. I want to know that more people are ok and safe :(

These threads have been wonderfully balanced, sensitive and articulate, I've followed each of them and some of the points made have made me consider things in a way I never would have done before. Well done and thank you.

If MN can only do it by moving it to In The News now so we post on there from now on would everyone be okay with that?

Thankyou Burn.

I understand that people want to know how many people survived. But I imagine it is tricky to work this out.

With a huge fire burning out of control, and with people alive but trapped, the emergency services would have been focused on rescuing as many people as possible and treating those most in need of medical assistance. They wouldn't have been keeping track of the people who got out safely and uninjured. They'd have wanted them out of the way at a safe distance so that they could get on with the task as hand.

Would all these survivers make themselves known once the fire was under control? I'm not so sure. Perhaps they have reason to distrust anyone representing the authorities. Maybe they are in the country illegally, or we're sub-letting a flat that shouldn't have been sub-let, or they had more people living with them than their tenancy agreement allowed. Maybe they have had such a bad experience with the authorities in their country of origin, that they don't want to attract attention to themselves. Maybe they are native Brits who have been failed by people in authority time and time again. I can understand that some of them may desire to be incognito.

Perhaps you feel uncomfortable claiming to be a survivor. If you weren't at home (because you were at work, or on holiday, or visiting friends), perhaps you feel a bit uncomfortable about labelling yourself as such. You have lost your home, but you haven't had the same traumatic experience as your neighbours who had to flee for their lives.

Or perhaps you simply feel guilty for surviving when so many others didn't. I believe survivors guilt has been well-documented in the aftermath of previous disasters. Perhaps because of this you don't want to make a fuss, to direct attention your way.

Well there should be an official statement of amnesty then. Distribute it through the churches and mosques

Oubliette, I don't mean they have to give the final number of survivors, just those they have been able to confirm. I know there will be many more who they can't confirm for various reasons.

I've seen now there is point in Kensington set up for residents to go to so they can let the police know, so I assume some number does exist.

And they're not being labelled as survivors, but as residents of the block, in the police information.

Tiredemma, when one of my family members died, the funeral director and the nurses both suggested it was more dignified to remove the body from the house at night.

I would expect they will remove those who have perished at night, and it will be for reasons of privacy and dignity, not to hide anything.

I personally would expect the number to rise.

I would have thought the current figure of 58 would be based on the number of people KNOWN to have been in the building at the time. As in they have evidence that they were from phone calls etc that can place them in the building at the time of the fire. Then it will go from there.

The thread has moved on but on the question of inquest v public inquiry, I'm ashamed to say I didn't understand the difference until now, but Inquest (the charity with highly relevant expertise here) have a statement on it which sets out the points.
Inquest are saying that a public inquiry will be more in the families' and the public's interests.

Albadross very sorry that you've been through such a terrible time.

I find it hard to articulate but the lack of information about residents is something I find incredibly disrespectful and distressing.

Whether the whole block was full of illegal immigrants and sub letters is irrelevant imho. It feels like excuses to excuse the fact the council don't know arse from elbow by subtly blaming the people that were in the building. People should be working harder to identify potential victims not less hard because of these reasons. I don't mean emergency services because they are doing a different job, I mean the people who've been happy to collect council tax and rent from the people of Grenfell.

Thanks Prune, that link is really helpful.

I'm still catching up with the threads, so this may have been mentioned, but I'll link it anyway

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/grenfell-tower-fire-nursery-15-10637730

15 children seem to be missing from this nursery.

The mirror says of 70 known names missing, only 6 are 4 and under.

HandbagKrabby

I agree, I know they are not part of the council but someone looked at working tax credits, child tax credits, child benefit, job seekers allowance, disability benefit, carers allowance, income support ect ect....

HMRC must have records of most of the people living there and in what family groups (to an extant)

Information from architects:

www.e-architect.co.uk/london/grenfell-tower-in-west-london

Refurbishment included surveillance in the reception according to this posted in the mirror yesterday: