Grenfell Tower fire- thread three

[RhythmAndStealth]

Seventeen tragic deaths confirmed so far, six victims provisionally identified.
Number of those who perished feared to rise into triple figures as search proceeds
Search for remaining victims expected to take weeks, sadly it’s considered unlikely that it will be possible to identify all the victims
Names of those still missing start to emerge
Nearly 80 victims being treated across six hospitals, with 15 still in critical care
Hundreds of people displaced and dispossessed, concerned about when and where they will be rehoused

Public inquiry ordered.
Criminal investigation launched.
Serious questions being asked about fire safety regulations, management of social housing, austerity and inequality.
Fire Brigade search of building expected to take weeks due to complexity of building, extent of fire damage and the necessity of undertaking a painstaking fingertip search.

“There must be arrests after this monstrous crime” David Lammy MP

‘Families rehoused last night been left clueless about where to spend next nights. No word from #kccouncil. Chaos.” Emily Maitlis, BBC

“We have to act as if it was our friends, our family in that block” Nick Hurd MP, Policing and Fire Minister

“Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.” Local resident to Sadiq Khan

Thread 2
Thread 1

YY to frameworks Sorry to repeat myself but the sub contracting out of work is a BIG problem.

Thankyou all for your support. i was sickened by what i saw on there but unfortunately not surprised.

Where would be best to donate online? I'm in Oz but my family are originally from NW London and my heart just goes out to everyone affected by this tragedy.

GardenGeek the residents are saying that making the block attractive for the posh flats was key to this.

We also know that the residents not being listened to was likely a key failure that allowed this to happen.

Please stop minimising this.

I asked what evidence you have, you only have opinion. Please stop.

I will be making a donation to the fire fighters charity who support fire fighters emotionally and practically. Here is the link if anybody is interested

www.firefighterscharity.org.uk

Having seen many regenerated tower blocks from the outside I assumed the insides were being modernised along with the outsides. I've lived on a mixed ha and private estate and the ha houses were bigger than the privately owned ones and had regular maintenance to improve and maintain them and again I assumed this was the standard for ha. I'm appalled this is not the case.

I can believe that this building work has met the lowest, pathetic excuse for standards we currently have and I think everyone involved in setting those standards needs to be for the chop. It's utterly disgraceful to cover a home in anything vaguely flammable, especially when there are easily available alternatives. To have people have no choice but to live somewhere they know is unsafe is unforgivable.

I live in an exec home (home builder speil) and I'm currently objecting some terrible planning decisions by the council that massively impact on my home and compromise it's safety from flooding. The council have blantantly lied to me about various aspects of the building work and have treated me with contempt for questioning them. They don't give a fuck about anybody other than big businesses.

I can't stop thinking about the children who have perished and how scared and hopeless their parents must have felt when they couldn't protect them. I'm so angry this has happened when it could have been avoided. It's not just a terrible tragedy it's a corporate/government disaster, and we need whole scale reform to ensure it never happens again. Things like this used to happen in Victorian times, it's 2017 and it's inexcusable and unforgivable.

We don't know if the residents are right about that.

Tower blocks across London have had their external appearance remodelled to improve the environment, and they are not all in places with 'affluent' neigbours. It's something that was just thought to be good to do, because a more pleasant built environment is meant to be good for communities.

We do know a growing consensus of areas which need investigating urgently.

We know it seems likely that multiple factors were in play.

We know that there will be a fire service investigation, a criminal investigation and a full inquiry. All of which will take some time, but it's really important that they are done thoroughly.

chantico

I think you are right and I think it is important not just the investigations are done fully, but that we are not just fobbed off with 'never again' and 'lessons have been learned'.

This isn't a one off though. 1000s of people live in tower blocks with similar refurbs. People living in these conditions can't be expected to wait years and years for the results of the enquiry. It's inhumane. And as we have seen, when the results of a similar enquiry are delivered 6 years after a tragedy, nothing is done.

GardenGeek: the reason that people are arguing that appearance was prioritised is that this was a main argument but forward by the council in the planning decision:
"Materials to be used on the external faces of the building(s); Reason - To accord with the development plan by ensuring that the character and appearance of the area are preserved and living conditions of those living near the development suitably protected"

ie the appearance to be protected for those "living near" in private houses
www.rbkc.gov.uk/planning/searches/details.aspx?adv=0&simple=Grenfell+Tower&simpleBatch=20&simSubmit=Search&id=PP/12/04097&cn=145691+IBI+Taylor+Young+Chadsworth+House+Wilmslow+Road+01625+542200&type=decision&tab=tabs-planning-2#tabs-planning-2

By the way - the school was built at the same time Grenfell was refurbished and also had cladding panels - has anyone checked that the school is safe?

I agree, and would call for proper rigour, which does not include paying only lip service to conclusions and recommendations.

(Oh, and I missed Coroner's Inquest from the list of initial investigations)

garden
^This might shock you europa.eu/youreurope/business/public-tenders/rules-procedures/index_en.htm^
By law they have to tender it out; and not just to UK, but any company in the EU.
They also aren't even allowed to specify we want 'x' cladding by 'x' company. You can only say we want 'pink cladding to BSxxxx' (British Standards codes)

^^ this

avamiah I believe she is missing.

Thanks Disordedallsorts. I found the London Community Foundation via the Redcross.

the residents are saying that making the block attractive for the posh flats was key to this

^This

Classism is a huge issue. This wasn't a poor council - it's one of the richest in the country. The new Labour MP has said that it is sitting on about £300m in reserves, and yet it didn't think it was worth repairing the electrics, lifts and addressing other safety issues.

Lots of great points on these threads.

I have a hunch that these works were not funded internally, in the main, but via the Energy Company Obligation scheme in order to thermally upgrade (rather than it being cosmetic). Of course, the works should still meet building regs and that will be a key focus of any inquiry.

helena I see your threads on here time and time again with information and links and facts about social housing. You are relentless in raising the very real issues relating to social housing.

If more people listened to people like you these tragedies could be avoided.

They also aren't even allowed to specify we want 'x' cladding by 'x' company. You can only say we want 'pink cladding to BSxxxx' (British Standards codes)

While it is true that councils cannot specify the supplier or brand name it is not as straight forward as the council having to take anything offered. The specification should be very comprehensive and in this instance could have requested that the cladding was made of a specific type of material, detail the fire proofing , the fire regulations etc, it can be very specific to rule out unsuitable or cheaper cladding and ensure rigorous quality.

Councils do not have to accept the cheapest supplier, it is usually addressed on the most economically advantageous tender, the criteria is set by the council. For example you could decide that price is only worth 10% of the score given to a supplier and quality makes us the 90%.

Councils will always have to contract for services and works, they cannot have the skill set internally for every single thing they do.

The specification is vitally important and what is being lost is the expertise of people in councils through cuts to departments and services mean visual skills are being lost.

And that planning condition is worded because that is how the works fall into the planning department remit. Fire safety is within the scope of Building Control (there will have been separate conditions for Regs).

Scotland Yard opened criminal investigation into Grenfell tragedy.

Tower blocks across London have had their external appearance remodelled to improve the environment, and they are not all in places with 'affluent' neigbours. It's something that was just thought to be good to do, because a more pleasant built environment is meant to be good for communities.

I thought some/most of the reason for cladding building was for insulation and improving their environmental status.
The looking better and more modern was just an additional benefit.

The government were supposed to review building regulations on fire safety in tower blocks 4 years ago. They 'sat on it'. There was plenty of evidence about the importance of sprinkler systems and the danger of that type of cladding. Obviously governments of any political shade can be incompetent but the ideology of deregulation and cutting red tape surely makes this sort of thing more likely.

And I heard that residents wanted to take legal action when the council dismissed their concerns - bit couldn't afford to because of legal aid cuts.

It's all about chipping away protections for the poorest. It totally is political.

It's been 'sat on' since at least 2009

On aestheticism tigon, this excerpt is doing the rounds

The 2014 document read: "Due to its height, the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east.

"The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area. Therefore, views into and out of the conservation areas will be improved by the proposals."

I'm really not sure this is just about HA tenants - I would bet serious money that many of the privately owned / built blocks going up all over London are not being constructed to the specification / building regs.

We know that the process for checking and signing off buildings isn't adequate.