Grenfell Tower fire- thread three

[RhythmAndStealth]

Seventeen tragic deaths confirmed so far, six victims provisionally identified.
Number of those who perished feared to rise into triple figures as search proceeds
Search for remaining victims expected to take weeks, sadly it’s considered unlikely that it will be possible to identify all the victims
Names of those still missing start to emerge
Nearly 80 victims being treated across six hospitals, with 15 still in critical care
Hundreds of people displaced and dispossessed, concerned about when and where they will be rehoused

Public inquiry ordered.
Criminal investigation launched.
Serious questions being asked about fire safety regulations, management of social housing, austerity and inequality.
Fire Brigade search of building expected to take weeks due to complexity of building, extent of fire damage and the necessity of undertaking a painstaking fingertip search.

“There must be arrests after this monstrous crime” David Lammy MP

‘Families rehoused last night been left clueless about where to spend next nights. No word from #kccouncil. Chaos.” Emily Maitlis, BBC

“We have to act as if it was our friends, our family in that block” Nick Hurd MP, Policing and Fire Minister

“Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.” Local resident to Sadiq Khan

Thread 2
Thread 1

2015 Because they have evacuated people in nearby buildings too, I believe.

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle so basically "it's the immigrants own fault for dying?" yeah?

Well, it's taken a whole two and half days to get there.

I'm sitting here getting angrier by the minute. Can you believe the statement from rbck saying trying to name the residents as there was not a 'collective agreement to the sprinklers' please do not let them turn this on to the residents. They are trying to absolve themselves of blame.

Some other nearby homes have also been evacuated.

Whole households have been wiped out.

2015newstart I imagine they are counting those living in each flat as a household, regardless of if they are two families. I also expect some people are staying locally with friends/relatives so didn't require immediate emergency accommodation. I just hope that the Council won't refuse to help those that have been able to find their own temporary alternatives as one resident suggested.

*blame the residents

I've just read about a change in law in 2005. Up to that time, apparently the fire service were responsible for issuing a fire safety certificate to industrial and high rise buildings. In 2005, the government changed the law which removed fire safety certificates and instead placed the responsibility upon the building owners to ensure their building was safe. So they changed it from being assessed by an independent external body, to being "self assessed" in-house, presumably the owner has to engage their own specialist to perform checks etc. If that's true, it's yet another scandal - anyone being paid to do a service will be in-hoc to the person paying their fees - if they become too obstructive or disagree, they know they risk losing the work next time the contract is up for renewal. I think it's time to be put back into the hands of the fire service so at least it's independent. Anyone know the rationale behind the change in 2005??

There must have been a safety officer on the project.

Too many people in too small a foot print. This type of housing was a godsend post war but nowadays is just not practical. They are damp and noisy, but by God they didn't go up in flames so easily before the 'improvements'.

Cladding is supposedly to help in insulation and energy efficiency, not to 'pretty it up for the rich people' as has been bandied about. It's also a trend - we are supposed to be getting it done in our block (similar period property) but I have no idea now. We've also had fires, energy surges, leaks, power cuts... and out flat door is not fireproof. Private or council, there is something seriously lacking in building regulations in this country.

No they do not have to pay a specialist to do their own fire assessment. Anyone can do it. It does not have to be any kind of specialist.

Originalbigly local people know why that cladding was put on the building and it does need to be 'bandied about' as you put it. Safety of the residents was not thought to be as important as the appearance of the tower.

So they changed it from being assessed by an independent external body, to being "self assessed" in-house, presumably the owner has to engage their own specialist to perform checks etc. If that's true, it's yet another scandal - anyone being paid to do a service will be in-hoc to the person paying their fees - if they become too obstructive or disagree, they know they risk losing the work next time the contract is up for renewal

Yeah, this is part of the fucking problem, for sure.

The same goes for things like gas and sparky contractors.

My DP sees it all the fucking time.

Called into do a quick fix on a boiler in a block in London.
Boiler is ancient and covered in "At Risk" notices.
Dp goes to boss of his firm, says "we need to replace this, it's dangerous and failing"
Boss says "we can't risk this contract by costing them too much money, just put a quick fix in like a good boy"
Building management are frightened of losing their jobs by spending too much money, so it never gets replaced.

And it goes on and on.....

Thats why the whole fucking system needs an overhaul, and housing taken out of private contracting hands.
As soon as profit becomes involved, safety goes out the window.

Too many people in too small a foot print.

To make matters worse, developments immediately around it have reduced access for emergency vehicles. Looking at the action group blog, there used to be a car park which has now been built upon and the blog, many years ago, highlighted the risk of poorer access by emergency services when they were trying to stop the car park being built on. The same blog website has been complaining for years about the single access road being regularly blocked by illegally parked cars, skips, delivery/trades vehicles, etc which they highlighted would impede emergency vehicles. Looking at the photos, it seems that landscaping could also have played a part in poor access as there are many large mature trees very close to the tower which would have preventing fire service ladders and aerial platforms from being deployed.

2015newstart They had to evacuate families living nearby. There was a lot of debris falling off the tower block, so I assume that may have caused damage to nearby properties?

How can they 'know' were they told explicitly? It definitely is a trend - I can see 3 large blocks from my window - a private block of flats, a council one and an office block - and they are all in the process if being clad.

I have a quick question, just wondering if anyone knows the answer. HA properties here are generally not high rise (there were literally two or three in the city last I know, though they may have been knocked down recently). However all 70's council houses and flats have cavity walls, and the council have in the last five years or so filled these with explanding foam (as well as fitting cladding on some too). Is this as dangerous as the panelling has been shown to be?

(There is also an abundance of new schools, shopping centres and hospital wings that appear to have the same cladding as the flats, and I very much doubt they will have paid extra for safer materials )

Private or council, there is something seriously lacking in building regulations in this country.

^^ THIS!

The whole system is flawed from top to fucking bottom.
The buck stops at Governmental refusal to address any of the regs and laws that might cost money, but will help people and safety.

It then trickles down to private companies not spending money on the right things.
Shareholders demanding more profits.
Housing costs a lot to maintain and keep safe, but they either can't or won't spend it.

Ignoring of residents complaints and concerns.

Stupid materials that other countries have banned.

..and housing taken out of private contracting hands. As soon as profit becomes involved, safety goes out the window.

But, whilst I agree with those sentiments, at the other end of the scale, councils are notorious for waste and inefficiency.

I know it's completely different, but it's a classic example. Our local council "found" they had a pot of £300k left over from a grant and spent it on renovating our tiny village library, including mood lighting, outside decking areas, re-roofing, new windows, re-wiring, etc etc. It wasn't an old building and spending just £30k would have made a vast improvement. Less than a year later, they closed it down. A year later, it's empty, unused and decaying. A complete and utter waste of £300k.

We need to find a "middle ground" solution where we avoid the waste/incompetence but avoid the profiteers and shysters. How on earth we achieve that, I haven't a clue!

One word

de-regulation

The fast track to profits.

And @BossaDad has it!

at the other end of the scale, councils are notorious for waste and inefficiency.

I agree.
The whole system needs tearing down and starting again.

Remember private contractors now profit from taxpayers money via contracts with councils though.

Basically whichever way you turn, it's profit in private hands that is king in the housing system.

Housing associations are not for profit organisations.

Yes but many Housing Associations do not act with any accountability to residents.

Yes to originalboglymavis.

I live far from the megarich and towers are being clad!

It's an eco trend as much as anything else.

Building regs are a joke in this country, and the builders/council are untouchable. We have had a major issue with our new house for a year and the council admitted they don't actually check things are ok before signing them off, they just assume all ok if it's a well known builder. That well known builder who subcontracts to the cheapest people who don't have a clue what they are doing. The council get their cut and don't care about what's happening.
It's reflected in the problem with several schools in scotland with dodgy outer walls, including the one that collapsed. This is councils allowing private companies to do the work on the cheap and to hell with the consequences.

It's shocking what has happened, but as the residents of grenfell knew, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

This is truly a national scandal and there must be a change to building regs/fire safety rules as a result of this. One set of stairs for hundreds of people to evacuate in an emergency?? I can't begin to imagine the hell those people have gone through. And the firefighters who must have been trying to go up, trying to climb over those who had already died. Horrendous

I don't know why it's worth pretending it isn't a very strong possibility aesthetics played a large part. New developments require some properties to be social housing but separate entrances are built so the rich don't have to bump into the poor. Planners and developers try and avoid the rich having to be in the same vicinity as the poor. It's grotesque! This country has its priorities very wrong.

I am still so angry that this was allowed to happen.