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Original poster

Grenfell Tower fire- thread three

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 15/06/2017 23:24

Seventeen tragic deaths confirmed so far, six victims provisionally identified. Flowers
Number of those who perished feared to rise into triple figures as search proceeds Flowers
Search for remaining victims expected to take weeks, sadly it’s considered unlikely that it will be possible to identify all the victims Flowers
Names of those still missing start to emerge Flowers
Nearly 80 victims being treated across six hospitals, with 15 still in critical care Flowers
Hundreds of people displaced and dispossessed, concerned about when and where they will be rehoused Flowers

Public inquiry ordered.
Criminal investigation launched.
Serious questions being asked about fire safety regulations, management of social housing, austerity and inequality.
Fire Brigade search of building expected to take weeks due to complexity of building, extent of fire damage and the necessity of undertaking a painstaking fingertip search.

“There must be arrests after this monstrous crime” David Lammy MP

‘Families rehoused last night been left clueless about where to spend next nights. No word from #kccouncil. Chaos.” Emily Maitlis, BBC

“We have to act as if it was our friends, our family in that block” Nick Hurd MP, Policing and Fire Minister

“Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.” Local resident to Sadiq Khan

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HemanOrSheRa · 16/06/2017 18:04

The problem is the residents aren't going to get the answers they want immediately. It can't be done. But someone from the council needs to be meeting with them to tell them what the plans are. Except I don't think the council have a plan of any kind.

LokisLover · 16/06/2017 18:04

I can understand why the police cannot say how many have died because at this moment they probably don't know officially until they search the whole building top to bottom. What an awful awful prospect.

But....they must know approx how many are missing. They should be releasing this information, and yes there should be more government/council people showing face.

It's all so horrible and how could they not be angry. I'd be fucking livid.

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/06/2017 18:11

Thanks burntheblacksuit, I'd only managed to track down the proportions for the estate.

DailyMailReadersAreThick · 16/06/2017 18:21

IdontTrusther

Earlier you said: "Cant believe how people are trying to shoehorn in a political stance here. If anything why on earth didnt labour - the champions of the poor look at all of this when they were in power after - all - the longest gov in power in recent times and the champions of the poor."

And now you say: "although if Lilly Allen is involved it could be more like the momentum crowd using this as a political stick...."

Maybe stop being such a hypocrite and casting stupid speculations?

Jesus christ. So crass.

Original poster
RhythmAndStealth · 16/06/2017 18:25

Agree that the anger is absolutely justified.

Agree that the Council's (lack of) response is horrendous. Stonewalling is not acceptable. There is a huge amount of disrespect being shown.

And a huge amount of breathtaking incompetence. Where is the major incident plan? Where is the help? Why is no-one from the Council leadership addressing these concerns directly?

The anti-social behaviour letters hand delivered today from the TMO are, frankly, disgusting. Reprehensible. Revolting. I cannot believe that level of incompetence and insensitivity.

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SylviaPoe · 16/06/2017 18:25

At 18.13 on the BBC news there is footage of firefighters trying to put out the fire around the original flat, and you can see the staircase through the big windows. It's completely clear of smoke and people are walking down it quite calmly at the point.

Sycamorewindmills · 16/06/2017 18:27

ITV news says more than 70 people unaccounted for. So that's an estimate of the number who are currently known to be missing. However, it's impossible to know at this stage how many people,were in the building on the night of the fire. A huge number of flats. Some would be sublet, some owned and let out, some people would have had visitors. How could the number be known?

Original poster
RhythmAndStealth · 16/06/2017 18:27

Sadiq Khan's letter to Theresa May

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EmilyBiscuit · 16/06/2017 18:28

Would it be possible to add a %based levy to big new / luxury developments to bring london's existing tower blocks up to current building regulations? If you want something approved by building control you need to pay a 2% levy to be used exclusively for improving current homes. That would be one tower block fitted with sprinklers for every £10million development.

If you don't want to redevelop the area anymore then we can use that area for social housing.

Original poster
RhythmAndStealth · 16/06/2017 18:31

I think that number is based on missing person's reports Sycamore. It's possible that some people in the building didn't have anyone to report them missing, so there could be more than that.

I would hope that the number is being cross-checked against lists of residents/tenants etc. But I also think that information is likely to be scattered at best, and then there are concerns of competence with some of the organisations responsible for keeping e.g. lists of tenants.

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StatisticallyChallenged · 16/06/2017 18:32

As far as I can tell that number is not from the police or fire service though is it?

Of course there is no definite answer but they could say "we currently have x named and confirmed dead and a further y who we are confident were in the building and are currently feared to have perished. There at be others who have not been reported to us"

There are numbers from 60 to a couple of hundred flying about. The missing number won't be bang on but it will be in the right vicinity

HeyRoly · 16/06/2017 18:34

Exactly sycamore. How can the number be known? Robert Peston posted this on Facebook and I have to say I was, naively, quite shocked. My initial assumption about the statement about "some people may never be identified" was more to do with bodies being burned to almost nothing. It's not that:

The horrific corollary of a faceless, irresponsible system of public-housing governance is that many of the poor and vulnerable people who died in the fire are not even being given the respect of formal identification as victims - because they live on the fringes of the state, and the authorities seem unable to be confident they even existed, let alone that they have died.

Want2bSupermum · 16/06/2017 18:37

emily it's actually quite cheap to put a sprinkler system in a building like that. You don't need £2m per building. Also, the council have paid the HA £11m. That should easily cover the necessary work. The poor management by the HA is the problem.

brexitstolemyfuture · 16/06/2017 18:43

What I don't understand is the 72k per unit. That should be close enough to build brand new high rise flats! I know someone that works in the hotel industry and a hotel room that's high end aimed at buisness people had a build cost of about 30k per room, apparently.

MonkeylovesRobot · 16/06/2017 18:47

"and a hotel room that's high end aimed at buisness people had a build cost of about 30k per room,"

A hotel room is just one room with a bathroom though. Many of the flats in Grenfell Tower were four bedroom flats, with bathroom, kitchen and living room. They are much more complex in their design and build requirements in terms of heating, electricity and water supply.

EmilyBiscuit · 16/06/2017 18:48

2% of £10million is £200,000. That is the amount being quoted for fitting a block like Grenfell with sprinklers (which is the current recommendation for residential blocks this size). Given that £100million developments aren't exactly rare in London it wouldn't take many to get the current housing stock up to scratch.

Original poster
RhythmAndStealth · 16/06/2017 18:48

I think that hit's the nail on the head Hey Roly

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IdontTrusther · 16/06/2017 18:50

daily Hmm

Yes - people are trying to shoe horn this into a political stick and yes people are reporting that Labour councillors want people on the streets - turning this into a riot, and yes I worry that far left anarchists will jump on this and encourage violence. How is that being a hypocrite its the same thing.

lalalalyra · 16/06/2017 18:52

I simply do not understand the council's seeming lack of doing anything. Every council has a major incident plan. It isn't without bumps and glitches, but it should sweep into place.

How anyone thought the anti-social behaviour letters would do anything other than cause a riot is unreal - although maybe that's the point... Have it all kick off and deflect attention from the real source.

I hope they are working out quickly how dangerous this cladding is. If it is the reason it turned so horrific then, given the current climate, it makes other buildings sitting targets.

It's just horrific. All of it.

IdontTrusther · 16/06/2017 18:53

I dont understand people blaming the TORIES I blame all of them - these buildings were there under the labour gov after all.

lalalalyra · 16/06/2017 18:53

I simply do not understand the council's seeming lack of doing anything. Every council has a major incident plan. It isn't without bumps and glitches, but it should sweep into place.

How anyone thought the anti-social behaviour letters would do anything other than cause a riot is unreal - although maybe that's the point... Have it all kick off and deflect attention from the real source.

I hope they are working out quickly how dangerous this cladding is. If it is the reason it turned so horrific then, given the current climate, it makes other buildings sitting targets.

It's just horrific. All of it.

brexitstolemyfuture · 16/06/2017 18:53

Oh I didn't realise they were 4 beds, I thought it was just one and two beds. It still seems like throwing good money at buildings that aren't fit for habitation even without the cladding with just one fire escape. I understand that mantaince will be high in these old blocks. Any idea what their original lifespan was supposed to be?

The protest in Westminster looks in good spirits and peaceful. Hopefully will stay that way

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/06/2017 18:54

Monkeyrobots there were only 4 4 beds and three 3 beds - newly created additions as part of the renovation. The other flats were all 1 and 2 beds.