Maybe we should be very glad that Obama is going after all?

[Jupiter2Mars]

.. and is being replaced with someone with a very different outlook.

This is what Obama said yesterday:

" And then, in Germany, I’ll visit with Chancellor Merkel, who’s probably been my closest international partner these past eight years. I’ll also signal our solidarity with our closest allies, and express our support for a strong, integrated, and united Europe. It’s essential to our national security and it's essential to global stability. And that’s why the Transatlantic Alliance and the NATO Alliance have endured for decades under Democratic and Republican administrations. "

To repeat: this is not about the UK. This is about the future of the NATO alliance. It says that loud and clear in the original quotation. At high levels, officials in Germany are in a panic that Trump's election means an end to the alliance - and not without reason, given some of the statements Trump has made ('It may be that we have to let NATO go' being a standout moment).

This NY TImes article offers an explanation as to why Merkel is seen as key after Brexit. Defence of the NATO alliance and particularly renegotiating funding of it may now be down to her.

www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/world/europe/germany-merkel-trump-election.html?_r=0

I agree with Aderyn and was a remain voter who remains in mourning and anxious. Agree many of the EU policies are wrong, controlling and arrogant. Worried that the alternative will lead to economic ruin. Hoping the EU is forced into reform. Pissed off at Obama's meddling- can you imagine if the boot was in the other foot and we tried to blackmail the US?

I don't think it's a case of people having rewritten the reality or forgotten anything.

I think the problem is that what we had before was imperfect and now we have nothing and no plan. Or at least, that will be the case when we've actually left.

And that the people who were calling for it/holding the referendum themselves though, "ah crap" on 24th June too. So much so that they resigned.

None of that puts us in a position of strength in anyone's eyes, surely?

If there had been a proper plan, that might be different. But everyone I know who voted to stay can give clear reasons why they wanted to, even if those reasons were, "I didn't have enough information about what leaving would mean". Whereas those I have spoken to who voted leave have said, "it's great, now we get a chance to be great again! How? No idea, but it will happen"

God the level of knowledge of international politics on Mumsnet is utterly depressing.

But, yes, clearly there is a bigger picture...

I'm struggling with the idea that Obama was meddling or trying to blackmail us.

For starters, he was brought over here by Cameron to bolster his campaign.

And also - what he said was pure fact. Of course the US would favour trade over the extremely large EU before it spent time looking for good deals with our comparatively tiny economy.

Why would they do otherwise? Politeness? A harking back to the good old days of '45?

Blu well said

Yes, and one of those politicians lining his pockets was one of the leading lights of the leave campaign. You couldn't make this stuff up!

Sorry dance - that wasn't aimed at you! General observation, definitely NOT inspired by what you wrote, which was intelligent! Didn't mean to look like I was criticising you personally!

I guessed that, it was a well timed x post

You're right though, I think a lot of people (including me) don't have [much of] a clue.

Which is why the whole thing is so worrying!

Like it or lump it, we are leaving the EU and we've got to make the best of it. Does anyone disagree with that.

I completely agree with this, OP. While I despair at the outcome of the referendum, I entirely accept that the downside of democracy is that we sometimes have to live with bad decisions. We voted out, and now we just have to grit our teeth and get on with it.

For me, that means accepting that we'll be much less relevant on the world stage from now on, accepting the fact that we'll all be much poorer for a few years, accepting the fact that our kids won't have the same rights to live and work in Europe that we once enjoyed, and adjusting our expectations accordingly. Railing against these changes won't make things any better. We do indeed need to make the best of it, and focus instead on the things that are still within our control.

At a tangent, today's headline about Britain's strategy to leave Europe is encouraging: Memo: No plan

dance - Well, I'm no expert either! But the thing that worries me is that people don't seem to understand that things like NATO mean that we have international obligations, Brexit or not. Even with hard Brexit, we will STILL be in NATO, though Brexit and Trump's election have both placed a question mark over its future (much to Putin's delight). The potential ramifications of that, in terms of collective defence and security at the highest international level, are huge, and really ought to concern all of us. In fact, you could argue that they make Brexit look a bit insignificant.

I wonder if we are entering a very, very new era of politics.

Theresa May has only been pm for about 5 minutes. How could she possibly have the same relationship with Obama as Merkel?
I really dont see anything wring with what he said.
As for the "back of the queue" comments - if I remember correctly at the time there were a lot of promises from Brexiteers that the US would be gagging to trade with us once we left the EU. Why shouldn't Obama have voiced his actual position, instead of letting Farage speak on behalf of America?

"a bespoke deal to allow immigration controls as well as maintaining access to the single market"

She's in cloud cuckoo land.

wrong not wring

It's all about Russia IMO. Well mostly anyway..

Iit isn't surprising that Obama wants assurance that Merkel's going to maintain the anti Russian stance and she knows she must. Ukraine and the attempted coup they were behind was a prime example of what form this takes. What America really fears is a German/EU/Russian alliance and Trump's election has cast some uncertainty over that. Just how much we'll have to see... So you can just imagine the pledges, promises and deal making going on behind the scenes now?

Merkel must maintain her belligerence towards Russia even though it is at odds with her coalition partners in the German government and also with Juncker at the EU.

There will have to be, of necessity, some cooperation between the EU and Russia, but anything like a deal to replace NATO with an entirely new alignment of power relations is far from likely right now.

I agree that Obama was trying to do Cameron a solid, in telling us how to vote, but the pair of them completely misunderstood how that would be received by the people voting. That is a massively worrying trait in two leaders of their nations. Obama took nothing from that and did it again in the US election, thinking he can tell people to vote for Hillary and that would be good enough. She had to earn the support that Obama had been given - those votes weren't for him to pass on!

I do think that Cameron ought to have had a plan. He was PM, he called a referendum and assumed we would all vote the way he told us to. A leader should never ask a question without realising that a vote can always go either way. I think history will judge him harshly for having no plan and bailing, having put the wheels in motion.

"I think history will judge him harshly for having no plan and bailing, having put the wheels in motion."

Too. Damn. Right.

As an aside, why is Boris not in more trouble? It's one thing to launch a campaign because you truly believe it to be in the best long term interests of your country, quite another to deliberately head a campaign you don't believe in, so you can score points off and hopefully oust a democratically elected PM. The word treasonous springs to mind

What war in the West was prevented by the EU?
I know this was a couple of pages back, but Good Grief! The fundamental premise behind the EU and all its predecessors is that closer ties and economic interdependence would be the best way to prevent conflict between member states. And it has worked.

The fact that some people cannot understand this goes a long way to explaining why some British voters place so little value on the EU.

lwelj - I thought you were American? How would you know about the detail of British politics?

What a bizarre statement. Really.

I find nothing wrong with Obama's statement for the reasons listed upthread and also because the relationship probably HAS been the closest. Acknowledging that is not a reflection on any other.

So what makes you think that Trump is going to regard May and Britain as his best mates? Why would he?

CorkieD - I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything.
Am I happy that Trump won? No.
Would I have been happy had HC won? No.

They were the two worst US presidential candidates I've ever heard of.

I did think, until I saw this story, that Obama was neutral, not bad, but I changed my mind.

Interestingly, I googled the story first to get the exact language. (You know how MN loves to complain when someone is misquoted). I found the story very easily on links to the Telegraph and the Express but I was hoping to find it in the Guardian. However, although the speech was there, the journalist glossed over that bit with a note that he'd be visiting Greece and Germany.