Maybe we should be very glad that Obama is going after all?

[Jupiter2Mars]

.. and is being replaced with someone with a very different outlook.

This is what Obama said yesterday:

" And then, in Germany, I’ll visit with Chancellor Merkel, who’s probably been my closest international partner these past eight years. I’ll also signal our solidarity with our closest allies, and express our support for a strong, integrated, and united Europe. It’s essential to our national security and it's essential to global stability. And that’s why the Transatlantic Alliance and the NATO Alliance have endured for decades under Democratic and Republican administrations. "

That's the first I've heard of it.

I'm not surprised at that, it seems that you have an extremely narrow view of events, historical or present day.

Cameron was Thatcherite, and therefore right wing.

The entire world is wondering why the UK has suddenly gone mad and decided to leave a mutual cooperation treaty, because it is economic suicide.

Obama has always done what he views as best for the USA, working with the EU and Germany is where the USA's future lies.

Isolationism is never a positive thing.

Given Blair's 'relationship' with Bush that led to the Iraq war, I'm not sure we want that sort of relationship,with America again!

typo psychics (but I am sure you knew that, so you were just being petty)

Jupiter just for reference America is not "my continent" I'm British, I just live in the U.S

As for your comment to Lweji this is 2016, it's really not hard for an American or anyone else to keep up to date with British politics and media through the internet. It doesn't even take particular effort.

BTW my US friends are just as entitled to comment on our politics as you are to comment (as you are doing by starting this thread) on theirs.

Nooka, I think Trump has rightly pointed out that lots of NATO nations, including Germany, don't pay their NATO dues. That's a different thing to saying NATO is a bad thing. Given that the last two NATO summits and much of the defence planning process is about getting these nations to pay up, Trump is right. Europe has been very happy to have an essentially free ride for far too long in defence terms.

Oddboots It's Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty that has prevented there being another war, not the EU.

Having RTFT I'm still struggling to see what's undiplomatic about Obama's statement. Just because you disagree with his opinion doesn't make it wrong jupiter , and if his is trying to make a point about the UK leaving the EU (and personally I think that's a bit of a stretch) then I think it's pretty diplomatic language.

And for what it's worth, I believe that a strong, integrated, and united Europe is pretty key to global security. I take the point that doesn't necessarily mean all the countries being in the EU but I do believe that would make it easier as it provides the platforms for dialogue, compromise and co-operation.

And as PP have mentions, Trump's attitude appears to be more isolationist (and at the moment he seems to be more pre-disposed to Farage than any member of our elected government...) so I'm struggling to see how he is going to be better for UK interests than Obama. His attitude to climate change is one area where we certainly could be in a much worse position.

Well OP obviously a lot if main leaders are shifting their support from UK towards other countries in Europe in l because they are not foolish enough to support Britain instead of Europe.
We are doomed and they dont want to be linked with us.
Britain leaving the EU has left a lovely space for Germany to be the leading country.
More and more people now will learn German and French as second language as English wont be used in Europe.
Surely you didn't think you could have your cake and eat it

*"Do you really think the rest of the world is shaking its head in disbelief

And yes, by Europe I mean the EU.

"Again the use of the word Europe when I think you mean the EU. Europe obviously has had wars since 1945."
I seem to be only one who doesn't know what you're talking about here, OP? Particularly as your previous sentence refers to wars which took place before 1945?

WW1 and WW2 were not about coal and steel. The point of the coal and steel treaty was that it is very difficult to start a war when you don't have sole control over your coal (for power) and steel (for munitions, tanks, vehicles, etc). And I referenced Europe rather than the EU because when the Coal and Steel Treaty was signed there was no such thing as the EU.

I think that Obama appears to be rushing to do the UK a disservice and that is worse

How on earth do his words amount to doing us a disservice? Surely it is obvious that Merkel has been a more important partner to Obama than May? How could it be otherwise?

With Trump, i do not know where we will end up, but he does not appear to be openly prejudiced against us, so its a good start.

Are you seriously saying that that a statement that someone else was a more important partner amounts to open prejudice against the UK? Really?

Like it or lump it, we are leaving the EU and we've got to make the best of it. Does anyone disagree with that.

Well, that's up to Parliament, isn't it?

The issue is that the UK is leaving the EU, not that Obama sees the greatest strategic alliance with Europe.

It was no secret that Obama supported Remain.

Would any American choose a small isolated island for trade and security alliances over the EU? Based on a shared language and an imagined nostalgia for casting off from Plymouth Ho in the Mayflower?

We are now adrift, stuck between Trump who will have loyalty to no one, and European neighbours who do not want to grant any concessions to Brexit ( such as staying in the single market) because for them the 4 Freedoms are inseparable, and some of them need the UK to be seen to struggle badly to forfend against any such ideas in their own countries.

This belief in a special relationship seems to be an arrogant, complacent view within the UK.

I;m sure Jupiter2Mars seems to be quite happy Obama is gone and Trump is in.

She now seems to be twisting herself in knots in order to convince the rest of us that this is a good thing for the UK. It all sounds like playground stuff.

Trump will not be good for the UK. It may well be the case that the UK is less badly affected than other countries.

"Britain is supposed to have a special relationship, but Germany is described as the closest partner. he could have said nothing but he chose to name a "closest partner"

He's going to Germany... What do you expect him to say? "Actually Germany it's lovely to be here but you know the UK is my bestest friend, right?, I mean Angela I luffs you but Teresa has amazing taste in shoes."

Good Grief!

Dubya and Bliar had a special relationship, not many of us liked how that ended up.

The Donald and Putin are chums, will you feel left out when Trump says how much he likes the weather in Moscow in the summer?

The thing is, OP, that I know that I don't have the greatest knowledge about any of these political unions.

But I know that. Kind of like Donald Rumsfeld's largely derided 'known unknowns'.

You, on the other hand, seem to think that what you know/have been told/believe is the whole picture.

This is diplomatic language. A rough translation would be:

'Trump has talked about doing some things that would seriously destabilize, if not end, NATO. I am doing my best, in the dying hours of my presidency, to reassure those who have an eye to these matters that there will be people fighting tooth and nail behind the scenes to keep strong ties, and to ensure that the US doesn't go down an isolationist path. However, there's not that much I can do in reality, because in a few weeks, Trumps toupe will have more power than I do'.

Trump is not prejudiced against us

Well, what the actual fuck? So as long as we are alright, it's fine then. Nevermind that he's prejudices about just about everything else. As you keep making cod historical references, maybe Google appeasement - it worked out so well for us last time.

Well put, Holly.

Yes, thank goodness we're losing a thoughtful, measured dignified leader of the free world and getting in return an unintelligent sexually abusing Klan-backed racist.

Phew eh? And thank god that Teresa May tells us that relations with this ludicrous demagogue are 'going well'.

Wouldn't want to be on the outside of the far right party looking in, would we?

Obama appears to be rushing to do the UK a disservice

No, Obama is staying true to his political principles. Elections and referendums are looming in a number of EU member states and Obama believes that his input will influence results. Considering the fate of his past endorsements (Remain, Hillary) I'm frankly surprised that Merkel wants his support.

On the war topic, in the absence of the EU it is easy to imagine Italy being involved in the Yugoslav war. Until 1945 the countries of Western Europe were almost constantly at war and the EU was set up partly to prevent this. Sure, there are other factors (NATO, the existence of nuclear weapons, the rise of democratic states) but I think the EU should be given credit too.

On Germany, I think Leavers have yet to realise that Brexit has handed economic hegemony over Europe to the Germans "without a shot being fired" as someone put it. The UK was the only economy strong enough to act as a counterweight and now we're gone.

Still can't work out why Obama talking about Germany is an insult to us. If someone compliments your friend on her shoes dp you take that as an insult because they didn't say anything nice about you? And if they then make a nice comment about a club that friend is in do you feel upset because you left that club? Narcissus is alive and well and posting on mum's net.

While a strong, integrated and united Europe might be a good thing, it is important to remember that we didn't have a strong, integrated and united Europe. We had an EU which was resistant to change from within, filled with former national politicians who were quite happily lining their pockets with our money, a two tier Europe (Greece, anyone?) and one where Merkel flooded the continent with people she knows nothing about and who would have had freedom of movement to the UK once they were given indefinite leave to remain.
In post Brexit Britain, people appear to have re written reality and forgotten that there are very real reasons to not think the EU is the best thing since sliced bread.

Personally, I am glad to see the gack of Obama, since he came over here and started telling us how to vote, threatening us in effect. Massively arrogant way to behave. Not saying Trump will be better but that whole US election was a shot show with no possibility of a good outcome, whoever won.