Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

How is that different to Saudi or Iran religious police monitoring what women are wearing on the street. If you honestly don't see a difference here then it really is not worth continuing the discussion - women are beaten with truncheons for breaking these rules

Coercion is coercion. Taking a way a persons choice is taking away their choice however you choose to do it. Also what evidence have you got they are beaten by truncheons. I have never heard that or seen that. Are you sure your not getting confused with Isis? If that does happen in Saudi or Iran it is completely disgraceful but I don't think that's true.

When I was in Oz I wore stinger suits for jelly fish. Practical, good for sun protection, modest if that floats your boat. How is this any different?

If a man had banned these, because he gets to tell women that they should wear less that's not cool. But it's Ok because it's Muslim women? Bollocks to that. If I was in Cannes id be wearing a burkini every day in solidarity.

By the way burkini is not a religious symbol. It's a fashion item just like a scarf or a skirt that is utilised by Muslim women. So the argument that it contravenes secular values is flawed. It's not a religious piece of clothing.

If you honestly don't see a difference here then it really is not worth continuing the discussion But I don't see a difference - we like to think we are enlightened and progressive in Western Europe but are dictating to women what they should wear in a public space and this happens in Iran and Saudi Arabia where it is policed. Yes they are more extreme examples but there is a similar underlying principle that concerns women's rights to dress how they please. Just because you approve of the dress code being enforced doesn't make it right to go along with this. I also really worry about how this feeds into a broader narrative to use women to criminalise muslim communities.

sorry "physically attacked" doesn't specify truncheons

The US Department of State, citing press reports, indicates that more than
two million citizens have been stopped or detained by the morality police for
inappropriate dress or hairstyles (8 Apr. 2011, 27). Meanwhile, Freedom House
states that
[h]arsher enforcement has increased the number of arbitrary arrests and
detentions in recent years. ... [S]ince 2006, male and female officers have
stopped, verbally scolded, physically attacked, arrested, or temporarily detained
thousands of women and some men for wearing insufficiently modest clothing,
or "bad hijab." (2010, 6)

from www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2013/11/07/IRN103920.E.pdf

I'm on the fence here because I agree with freedom and disagree with the state governing what you can and can't wear.

However, I don't have too much for a problem with the banning a symbol of misogyny and a cultural phenomenon used to keep woman as second class citizens in many countries in the world. Why should France be one of them?

I don't have too much for a problem with the banning a symbol of misogyny and a cultural phenomenon used to keep woman as second class citizens in many countries in the world.

You would rather they are prevented from going on the beach and swimming instead?

Men have to wear ridiculous budgie smuggler speedos at french swimming pools (admittedly perhaps not at the beach). The french are just quite prescriptive about what is swimwear imo and this is part of why it seems acceptable in france to lay down more laws about beachwear.

A Burkini is not a religious symbol

and now 3 cities in France want to stop, detain and arrest people because they are considered to be dressing too modestly. It's just a matter of degree really.

women choose to wear the Burkini using their own free will. Just because some countries dictate that women should be covered, doesn't mean that in other countries their freedom to be covered if they so choose to should be taken away from them.

Where does it end? Burkinis (an unfortunate tag imho) are just long swimsuits with a cap. Big deal.

No one has said a Burkini is a religious symbol. However they were created a allow Muslim women to go to the swimming pool/ beach whilst still remaining covered as their sexist culture dictates they must. It's a symbol of that.

Soup- women can still cover up if they must dowhattheirhusbandtellsthemto why not a wet suit or other outfit? They just can't wear a Burkini

8angle you state that burkinis, burqas etc are worn because of men forcing women to cover up. That is both incorrect and simplistic. Believe it or not, many women choose to wear these garments. Whatever your view on a culture that encourages such extreme modesty, this is as much a choice that women make as donning a bikini.

So by banning an item that allows them to be comfortable going swimming, you're not liberating them, you're just forcing them off in the beach and out of sight.

And it's not a "religious symbol", it's basically a wetsuit with a headscarf, except lighter material.

I'm actually really angry at this - yet more men telling women what they should and shouldn't be wearing.

France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe, they need to find a way to live with that which doesn't involve completely alienating a percentage of their population.

Women can not "choose" to remain covered anymore than a beaten wife can "choose" to stay with Their partner. It's not a choice, it's just a state of being. They might think they're happy with it but that's just because they're brainwashed

You can't wear a wetsuit instead. Ever tried to swim in a wetsuit? They float. Swimming is a pita (depending on how thick it is) and they cost a lot.

Don't I've lived in the Middle East and women their would either find that statement hugely patronising, or laugh in your face.

Good for them. presumably they don't realise they live in an extremely sexist culture? Are they that unaware?

They are living their lives just like you are living yours, for the most part. You also live in a sexist culture. If anyone can point out to me a country that isn't, I might move there.
In the meantime, I find it really saddening and sickening to think of women and children forced off the beach.

Basically, every culture needs to find their own way forward in terms of women's rights. And it's happening, even in Saudi there have recently been some changes (although the pace of change there is admittedly glacial, but Saudi is only one country).
What you CANNOT do is force top-down change on women who feel differently to you. It's extremely arrogant.

I do live in a sexist culture which is enraging. I know that their are many things I and other women do because we live in a sexist culture (wear make up, remove
Body hair) I do these things but I am
Aware it is result of living in a patricharical society. You seem to infere that women in the ME don't realise they are covered for the same reasons?

I hate what it stands for. This is nothing to do with religion but a political and misoginistic garment imposed by men.

Oh ffs this is not about liberating Muslim women but about control and criminalising a community. The quote by Roy posted up thread sums this up perfectly.

We all live in a sexist culture. women are told what to wear constantly, everywhere. That it's not enforced with violence is good (even though you could argue that it is with rape culture) but it's still policing women's bodies.