Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

I agree Life.

Mono, it's an approach that will now mean that many people won't go to the beach. That's not very inclusive. Diversity doesn't mean banning diverse clothing.

But isn't that the point? The whole secular approach (which I support) is to do with public institutions. I don't see how this relates to that really and think this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the terror attacks and is taking away a choice for women. And before anyone goes on about women in burkinis not having a choice, I think the same argument applies albeit in a different way to how women should dress in general (pressure to wear a bikini or be topless on some beaches in France). Didn't Nigella get ridiculed for wearing a burkini when she was just trying to cover up to avoid skin cancer?

'a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the terror attacks '

So true. I heard crazy people on the radio yesterday suggesting that wearing burkinis made it easier to smuggle in weapons. Someone on Twitter asked how you could possibly use a burkini to conceal a truck, referring to the Nice attack

This is heading toward Trump levels of paranoia and craziness

Well they perceive the secular approach to be effective in public institutions and this seems to be an attempt (albeit a strange one) to extend it further...

It's interesting that there seems to be support for the secular approach as a whole...

Yes, the Muslim women just won't go to the beach instead. Which I'm guessing is what they want. A good Muslim is an invisible Muslim to them.
People fail to see Muslim women as women and that this is a man telling women what they can wear. If the women were so oppressed they wouldnt be allowed to go to the beach in the first place.
It seems only atheism is accepted in society now and that you should suppressed anything else.
Already women have been arrested and fined. Mostly mothers and the elderly.
They say Muslims don't integrate but how are they given the chance when they keep banning things. Don't they understand that they are the oppressors.
What happened to je suis Charlie and freedom of expression? Or is that for everyone except Muslims?
They can't say why don't we see Muslim women in society when they are not allowing them.
As for eyesores on the med coast. The same could be said for mankinis and a lot of other things.
I wonder if the scuba suit is to be banned, probably if you are a Muslim women wearing it in a "Muslim way". The ignorance of theses law makers othering women.

'When, as happened recently in France, an attempt is made to coerce women out of the burqa rather than creating a situation in which a woman can choose what she wishes to do, it’s not about liberating her, but about unclothing her. It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural imperialism. It’s not about the burqa. It’s about the coercion. Coercing a woman out of a burqa is as bad as coercing her into one. Viewing gender in this way, shorn of social, political and economic context, makes it an issue of identity, a battle of props and costumes'.

Arundhati Roy

Totally agree with this. How is the bikini anymore liberating then a burkini? Surely it should be up to the individual to decide what they are comfortable in. For me personally I would feel horribly exposed wearing a bikini and I also think that it puts a lot of pressure on women to get 'beach body' ready, which suggests that some women's bodies are not acceptable to be uncovered on the beach. Look at the media and how female celebrities are picked apart when they wear bikinis on the beach with every inch of their bodies analysed for fat. Fuck that. I'm not seeing burkini are better but it's about choice. Women should have the choice to decide what they wear on the beach and it's nobody else's business. I do think that the impact of this is going to be to erase the presence of Muslim women on the beach which will probably mean their children as well. How is that creating an integrated society. Stupid idea.

Totally agree with this. How is the bikini anymore liberating then a burkini?

The point is that there is no religion where men are forcing women to wear a bikini, it is out of choice. In certain muslim cultures women are forced to cover up by men.

By outlawing the items of clothing used to perpetuate this abuse the French state or localities are trying to push back against this culture. It is reasonable to argue that they are treating the symptoms of the disease rather than the disease itself.

Atlas if you honestly believe the French state are oppressors of muslims in France then i struggle to take anything you say seriously

When they banned the burqa it didn't liberate Muslim women. It stopped them going out, attending university, being part of society, they now sit at home everyday.

If you can't see that as oppression then I struggle to take you seriously.

Surely accepting women in burkinis makes it more likely that their daughters will be able to take the next step in integrating into their Western society.

I'm not sure I see wearing a burkini as any attempt at all to integrate into Western society.

I know what message I think it sends daughters and it's not one I would be comfortable with.

It's ridiculous
Such a wishy-washy "ban".
To me, it sounds like they've "banned the Burkini" for any woman who could possibly look like a Muslim (whatever that "looks" like). Take for example a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale white woman wearing one. She might be a Muslim. Or she might be very sensitive to the sun. She might be going surfing/body boarding. Are they going to police what she is or isn't allowed to wear on the beach??
I think not

The point being they could always have taken off their burqa and then done all those things "going out, attending university, being part of society". the French state was not stopping them doing any of these, but the MEN of their religion do not allow them to leave the house without wearing specific clothing - and therefore were stopping them. they are the one being oppressive.

I am sure we are never going to agree on this

But didn't you read what she said. When you are coercing the woman to stop wearing items of clothing that she has chosen then you are actually carrying out an act of humiliation and unclothing her forcibly. I don't see any ethical difference between forcing women to cover and forcing them to uncover. It doesnt make France any better then Saudi or Iran (lets be specific they are the only two countries where womens clothing is covered by law) if it does the same thing but to the oppsite effect. You may view uncovering as more liberating then covering but that is your opinion. You mention symbols but actually it's modest dressing of Muslim women in general. The burkini is not a symbol of Islam. In fact I'm sure extremist would consider it immodest. Also in France a Muslim school girl was sent home for wearing a black long skirt because it supposedly showed religious affiliation. So now a black long skirt is a religious symbol too.

8angle - spot on

I think banning modest swimwear is absolutely bonkers. I have no objection to modesty at all. If I wore complete cover for swimming, it would be out of courtesy to the rest of the world, who really don't want to see a short, fat old woman's flab wobbling all over the place.

I do think that everyone, no matter what their race, religious or political convictions should show their face on entering and leaving public buildings and public transport. This would include dropping winter scarves for a few seconds, removing crash helmets, or pulling down your veil for long enough for a camera to get a look at you. That's all. I don't know how it would work on beaches or in parks! I can't solve all the problems of the universe, someone else will have to work on that one.

The only message it sends to Muslim women is that if your a Muslim woman we will decide what is appropriate for you to wear. I know many Muslim women who dress modestly out of choice. The clothing they wear does not have the connotations to them that you have imposed on it. You are forcing your cultural interpretations on to the way they dress because you dislike the way some Muslims behave.

I did read what she said - the French state are not forcing women to undress they are outlawing a specific item of clothing for its religious affiliation.

But i do agree that both of these can be seen as coercion - i happen to believe there is more freedom for people who are given the choice wear as much or as little clothing as you like (except these few religious items) and you can do anything (legal) you want to in our society than people are told - wear this or you can not leave your home.

Actually 8angle is assuming here. There are thousands, millions of women who cover up becasue they want to and not because the men of their homes have asked them to. Some of these women will also want to cover up at the beach too.

What we have here is a clear display of the law dictating what women should wear as opposed to your assumption that a family man is dictating it.

Women, should wear what they want to. If they want to cover up then fine. If they chose not to then fine. No one else, least of all the law, should dictate that to them.

Women, should wear what they want to. If they want to cover up then fine. If they chose not to then fine. No one else, least of all the law, should dictate that to them.

i agree - in France you can be as covered or as uncovered as you like, just don't wear a "religious item of clothing" Nobody is saying you cant cover up or dress modestly. compare this law in a secular country to the law in Saudi or Iran

" ... people on the radio yesterday suggesting that wearing burkinis made it easier to smuggle in weapons."

Smuggle them into the sea?

Actually they are forcing women to undress. Girls are forced to remove headcovering when they go to school. Women must remove headcovering when they go in to public buildings. Women who wear niqab must remove it or else they are fined. You think that's the right thing to do but if they do not want to do that as they have chosen their dress our of choice you are forcing them to uncover. This burkini ban just means Muslim women won't be able to go to the beach dressed in the way they feel comfortable or else they will be fined. How is that different to Saudi or Iran religious police monitoring what women are wearing on the street. Also they could use the same argument we are not stopping you from going to university entering public buildings etc just dress in the way we approve or stay at home which is exactly what the French are doing.

So are Sikh men banned from wearing a turban at the beach then?
What about French nuns?

Btw these laws were not there and the Muslim woman broke them. They saw the Muslim woman and made laws around her restricting her.
They are saying choose your faith or your ability to be a member of society.
Then say well we gave you a choice.
That's not a real choice.
That is forcing someone to do something or be outkast.