Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

I do not believe this was an innocent mistake but a very blatant attempt to whip up hysteria and increase anti Muslim feeling. Similar to the Nazis false propaganda about Jews.

I thought it was a mistake

That's why I said young girls shouldn't need to dress modestly and it should be banned

If there isn't a face covering it's not a niqab.

I know. Such grace in the face of my apology

Read back your comment you said it's a niqab without the partial face covering. Niqab is not the word your looking for. The word is hijab or headscarf. But it's not as emotive as the term niqab especially the idea of a 4 year old wearing one. You would have to be incredibly naive (self censoring here) not to have guessed the impact that statement would have. I would advise you educate yourself about what the different types of islamic modest dress actually are before making such huge false generalisations like many girls in North London wear niqab in school.

ffs it was me who said it was outrageous

And I worked out marmite got confused between the niqab and hijab

Others seemed fully in support of this choice

I do not believe this was an innocent mistake but a very blatant attempt to whip up hysteria and increase anti Muslim feeling. Similar to the Nazis false propaganda about Jews.

Is this directed towards me??

We impose our standards on our children too - In that sense our children are as oppressed as muslim girls who have to cover their heads

But isn't the point that each society has to work out its own "norms" and somehow come to a consensus on what's acceptable? It seems to me that the problems arise not from those who've generally lived together in a rough and ready measure of harmony, but when some actively choose to reject a society's expectations

To accommodate polygamy we would need to change the law

Not quite - it's true that multiple marriages are disallowed in the UK (though I don't know if folk can have Islamic marriages on this basis) but where a marriage happened abroad, aren't multiple wives allowed to live in the UK? Better minds than mine will no doubt be able to work out whether this should be okay ...

Read back your comment you said it's a niqab without the partial face covering. Niqab is not the word your looking for. The word is hijab or headscarf. But it's not as emotive as the term niqab especially the idea of a 4 year old wearing one. You would have to be incredibly naive (self censoring here) not to have guessed the impact that statement would have. I would advise you educate yourself about what the different types of islamic modest dress actually are before making such huge false generalisations like many girls in North London wear niqab in school.

You're completely out of order. Who are you to judge my motives or rationale? Don't lecture me, and I'd be very careful indeed about the nazi references considering my ethnicity.

I'll restrain my language to: Don't reply, now or in the future.

I do not believe this was an innocent mistake but a very blatant attempt to whip up hysteria and increase anti Muslim feeling. Similar to the Nazis false propaganda about Jews

Oh dear, what a shame - and this very interesting and educational thread had, on the whole, been so free of this kind of thing

You can not legally marry more than one woman or man in the UK. That's the important bit. You can have a sexual or romantic relationship with more than one woman or man which is not that uncommon in the uk considering infidelity is a major cause of divorce. However you can only have one legally recognised wife or husband at a time. I'm not aware of what happens if you get married abroad but for the purpose of our discussion that's not important as we are talking about what is acceptable within the UK.

Saying 4 year old Muslim girls wear niqab in the UK is highly inflammatory and would have the potential to provoke antimuslim feeling regardless of your intention. If I had not explicitly corrected your misunderstanding which you persisted in even after your 'clarification' the damage you would have done to people's perception and attitude towards British Muslims with that 'honest mistake' would have been severe. Especially since you gave the impression that girls wearing niqab was a common occurence in North London. Just because it's popular now to demonise Muslims doesn't mean it should be treated any less seriously then other very damaging false statements about other minorities that would incite hatred.

I do think Marmite made an honest mistake, actually, Needabreaknow.

And at the same time, I agree that the treatment and attitudes to Muslims is horribly reminiscent of nineteen thirties Germany. I do not understand why any Jewish person would be offended by our decrying this situation

Re. nazism, are we not supposed to learn lessons from the past?

As an Irish person I believe that any reference to the pre-conditions of the Irish famine that could help other people avoid such horrors, would always be welcome.

Are we seeing the oppression of Jewish and Sikh boys?

Enthusiasm well is what we are seeing the oppression of Muslim girls? It is you who has arbitrarily decided that wearing headscarves is oppression. Is it oppressive for all the other women I mentioned who cover their heads? Why is it only oppressive for Muslim women to cover their heads? Also how do you know the background of all Jewish and Sikh boys to know they are not oppressed? Are you 100% sure they all have made a choice to wear their religious symbols independently and haven't had societal or cultural pressure put on them to do so.

I used to be sympathetic to this view on mumsnet about girls as young as 5 wearing headscarves on a daily basis. From what I know from Muslim friends and have read from Muslim mumsnetters on this topic it is not a requirement on them to do so until they reach puberty. I don't think there is an issue for girls that young to wear it to the mosque or on religious days or even on the weekend on and off, just to clarify my position.

However, then I realised that actually many of the people who claim to be against young girls wearing it in school because of lack of choice (they assume) are also pushing to strip that choice away from fully consenting adult women. Then I changed my views.

I won't speak for you but for many people who talk about young girls wearing headscarves it's again not about protecting the rights of Muslim girls. When Muslim mumsnetters have given examples of their own daughters choosing to cover themselves in order to copy mummy, on occasion other posters tell them as the parent they should not allow their children to do this and should remove that choice. Also many times there is a hostile attitude displayed towards Muslim children in school having access to halal school meals, being able to take Eid day off or having prayer facilities available to them in school, which suggests they don't really care that much about the wellbeing of Muslim children. None of these issues caused any controversy 15-20 years ago.

I think this is more to do with the fact that there has been a significant rise in antimuslim/anti-islam feeling (islamphobia for short) so what people are actually opposed to is any visible reminders of Islam and Muslim presence in society specifically rather than religious observance in general (note people claiming it's about secularism not having a problem with other forms of religious observance in public e.g. Sikh turbans, crucifixes, jewish skullcaps or kippahs). This view has also been expressed in this thread. If it was just about very young girls then I would support it but some would like to see this right being prohibited for adult women too which contradicts their opposition to young girls wearing it because of lack of choice. Basically I just see this now as being about extending religious discrimination further taking choices away from Muslim women.

There are many reasons why Muslims women choose to dress modestly or why their daughters may wear headscarves. Have a read of some of the threads on mumsnet about this issue and you will see that. I don't think you can say Enthusiasm that it is all coming from a particular place which is different to why men are modest. Again this is your interpretation of why they are worn, perhaps based on what a few people may have said but certainly not all Muslims cover for the same reasons.

I hope this makes sense. I know it is a bit jumbled. I should have probably waited till I was more awake but wanted to clarify before I got too busy to post.

The copying mummy well my mum always wore high heels I wanted to copy her but she is an adult I was a child

The covering comes down to modesty a young child has no need to be modest

Yes it is coming from a different place I take it you have read the Koran women have different reasons for their need to be modest.
No doubt for some it's to show Muslim identity along with a wanting to dress modestly again something that a young child has no new to do

I know Muslims that would argue that it should be allowed with a non mumslim because they understandably feel that once again they are being picked on would they allow their young daughter to wear a hijab to school no

The more conservative forms of Islam are oppressive look at where the influences is coming from its not women's imams or scholars

There is no requirement for young girls to wear a hijab until puberty

I have not said the hijab should be banned for older girls or women or that they are all oppressed many have made that choice (sadly many come from backgrounds where women are oppressed) and have an understanding of why they are wearing it a young girl though she may be copying her mother also is learning from a very young age she needs to be modest and she simply doesn't

I would like to see the niqab banned in schools, universities (as it is in some Muslim countries), and government offices. The niqab separates those wearing it to the rest of society that is what it was designed for. The rise of popularity is no doubt political for some but the influence is once again from very conservative Islam that isn't progressive and daming of any western influence

Religious freedom and progression do not always go hand in hand. The focus is too often on women the focus should be mosques and groups that are spreading this form of ideology it's not to integrate Muslims into societies or about progression quite the opposite

And having Muslim family, an exdh (still close friends with and his family, having lived/worked in a Muslim country, read the Koran (and some bits of the hadiths), and spent quite a bit of time in Marseille (large Muslim population) has formed my views

Do all those I know support them no but many do as there are huge cultur differences within the Muslim community

My post comes across jumbled too but tried to reply to your points

I understand your points Enthusiasm. I don't feel comfortable with girls under 10 wearing head scarves full time. However I feel like with a lot of the discussions about Muslim women's dress it's not borne out of real concern but a general dislike of Islam and Muslims. People can be pretty abusive to muslim women who say they have chosen to wear the headscarf. I read one French politician comparing them to a Africans who were involved in the slave trade. Also those saying that Muslim women should not have the choice to wear them either.

There are a lot of different reasons why women and young girls wear headscarf and they are not necessarily restrictive. There are many designs and styles. It really can't be compared to heels which would be difficult for a small child to walk in. I think sometimes little girls wearing headscarves can look beautiful. If the child has no problem with it I don't see what the problem is as long as it can be verified that the child has no problem with it. A friend of mine told me that her daughter used to beg her to wear a headscarf at the age of 3 and 4. Her mum used to refuse because she was worried about what people would think of HER if they saw her daughter wearing a headscarf. Occasionally she would let her wear it when they went out but she would keep asking her daughter if she wanted to take it off to make sure she was still comfortable. She was usually happy to wear it for long periods. Sometimes we may see a young girl wearing headscarf and jump to the conclusion that she wears it all the time or has been forced in to it. But sometimes it's nothing more than a mother simply indulging her young child's request like my friend.

We have placed all these connotations on the headscarf about what it represents. However it is essentially just a piece of fabric and the wearer of it should be able to define what it means and have that definition accepted without being attacked.

Again, being Muslim is not even remotely similar to being a nazi.
That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists.
Muslims should continue to be as they were and practice their religion as they were.
They shouldn't have to pander to warped reasoning that equates a scarf over a head with a swastika. FFS.

Also:
the swastika was just a piece of metal
What do you think the swastika is?

Originally, lweji it was actually a symbol of eternal light, it's first use believed to be by the hindus thousands of years ago; it was only later that it was changed from a right handed to a left handed swastika and co-opted by the evil

Of course I appreciate that nazis and muslims aren't remotely similar; I'd have hoped that hardly needed saying. My point, though - and forgive me if I put it clumsily - was about the power of symbolism and issues which arise from that

But the swastika is a symbol and of a specific evil regime.
(Well, it was used by that regime. I'll never forget the shock I had when I spotted a little swastika on a large decorated ancient Greek pot in a museum in Crete)

But a veil is not a symbol of Islam, nor is Islam evil. It only happens that the current major terrorist organisation is (claims to be) Islamic.
Wearing a veil hardly has anything to do with ISIS. It's a religious related practice. I don't find it offensive in the least.

I'll never forget the shock I had when I spotted a little swastika on a large decorated ancient Greek pot

I know what you mean; that's the sort of thing which prompted me to look into its history and always check which way round the "legs" face

They do, and I'm equally surprised that this is a surprise to anyone. Go to any school in N London with a large Muslim community and you'll see Reception and even Nursery kids wearing them.

I got to a N London school daily during term time - to drop my children off at school. they go to a school with a lot of Muslim children and I have never seen a child with a niqab. I have seen hijabs on children, and niqabs on mothers, but never niqabs on children.

A big difference is that the Nazi swastika was deliberately used to send a particular message.

The symbolism of wearing a veil or modest swim wear isn't always clear, although some people understand it in a very black and white way.

The far right and far left rely on an over simplified idea of the world with goodies and baddies and simple solutions. In particular at the moment Islam and Israel are either bad or good, and any suggestion that things are more complicated is threatening.