Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

And where on earth have I said what happens in Saudi Arabia is a good thing, Nina?
But is that honestly the model France wants to aspire to in terms of it's treatment of women?

It isn't a choice if Saudi forces you to cover neither is it a choice if France forces you to uncover.

What are you trying to imply toast? I hope your not suggesting what I think you are as that's a bit of a low blow or a cop out as you still havnt answered my question on - what about the women and girls who do not want to wear this garment but will be seen as less religious by their peers?

I used the SA as your so keen to insist on 'choices' yet if I went to SA I wouldn't have one yet that fact never gets brought up.

mrs no two wrongs don't make a right - I've not suggested otherwise.

The burka/Burkini is a visual tool of oppression under the guise of religious requirement - which it isn't.

How does banning it solve those problems, Nina?

Atlas but what about the women that that dont want to cover??

Yet again bizzarly no one can answer that.

The women that don't want to cover? Education, financial independence in the form of parental benefits, free English classes and conversation, curbing ghettoisation, housing and counselling for women leaving, adverts for these in Arabic, and a crap ton of other things. But not banning burkas.

What about women that don't want to cover? They already have most people on their side. There is this overwhelming burden to uncover everything you see in the media, from friends and society is telling them to uncover. Many already do. Why should women who cover have their rights taken away so that those who don't want to are free? That's not freedom. You don't oppress people to free yourself. I have yet to meet a Muslim women who's dad/husband is making them cover up. You say peer pressure? Peer pressure is everywhere look at cosmetic surgery, Botox, fake tan, hair removal to look more attractive?Are they taken away from people because of peer pressure? No. People still have the choice. You belittle Muslim women if you think they are voiceless with no brains to decide for themselves. Yes I know there are women that are forced to cover but that doesn't mean that the rest don't choose to cover. Just because you don't want to cover doesn't mean you get to decide the life choices of everyone else.

tbh mrs I think regarding the Burkini it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water. A few years ago it really wouldn't be an issue but under today's spot light it signifies s lot more that what it actually is - an all in one swim suit. Even the name derives from burka which is a visual tool of extremism and oppression.

I think the west fo need to adopt a very low tolerance on symbols of extremism as this ultimately ends up with women and kids being treated like nothing. There are sects/groups of othadox Jewish people who also need the spot light focusing on them. Threasa may was supposed to be setting up a panel to see what was happening but I think that's fell by the way side. There are areas in London where Jewish women were banned from driving. No one batted an eye lid because it was all hid under the umberella of 'religious freedom' - but that's another thread.

I don't know how to fix it but I really don't think the way to go is turning the other cheek or ignoring it.

Just back from a place with 40 degree heat and really saddened by all the women covered up while their men folk walk alongside them in t shirts and shorts.
Why don't men feel the need to cover up?

Dontyoulove, because it is 'othering'.

Atlas who do they have on their side? Genuin question? Some of these women are under intense social responsibility to be seen as a 'good religious women' - so no they don't have people on their side at all.

mrs do you not recognise there is social pressure to cover up?

Of course. There's also social pressure on western girls and women. Not helped by banning yoga pants or short shorts!

I live in Egypt, & my friend won't swim in the pools in our residential compound because there are signs up specifying appropriate swimwear - no thongs (too revealing) & no burkinis (because the compound wants to promote a 'Westernised' image to attract a particular clientele). This is also often the case in 5* hotel resorts - I stayed in a hotel last year that had little diagrams in its information folders depicting acceptable & unacceptable swimwear.

She is, as it happens, a devout Muslim & believes she should dress modestly - which in her opinion excludes a Western-cut swimsuit. I don't share her opinion but I do know it's her own & not her dh's.

It clarified the chuff out of my thinking: I don't much care for 'modest dress' & what it represents, whether it's a burkini or an American patriarchal community dressing their girls in floor length prairie frocks. But I'd still rather my mate got to join the rest of us for a swim, wearing whatever the fuck she likes.

It does strike me as ironic that she is having her freedom to wear Islamic dress curtailed in a Muslim-majority country, whereas the pool in my local leisure centre in the UK was always full of burkinis, or leggings & t-shirt combos, & no-one turned a hair.

I'm a Muslim women and if I decided to take everything off I know that people would come up to me and congratulate me on being "free" neighbours and other Muslim women. I feel the overwhelming pressure to uncover I become Muslim when I was 16 aswell so I know what it like to dress "normal".
Covering up is seen as something old women do, it's seen as frumpy. Young girls sometimes go through a phase of covering almost to be rebellious then go back to uncovering. When I go to Muslim households I get asked why are you wearing that you were born here?
I stand out. I'm stared at. I have been spat at and verbally abused. To uncover would rid me of all that. But why should I?
So you can't see my hair and body shape how does that affect you (anyone)? If I am intergrating in other ways or should I say carrying on from what I done when I was 16 except now I cover, then what is the problem? It is pure anti Islamic behaviour aimed at suppressing women, Muslim women. Why not go after the Muslim men as they are the ones that are committing these crimes. Why must women suffer because of the acts of men? All it does is make me want to stay at home. But then you will have the Muslim women stereotype of staying at home now. It's like you can tattoo and pierce your face. Get cosmetic surgery that changes your appearance but God forbid don't cover your hair. Like I said above do Sikh men have this problem? No as a matter of fact they don't have to follow certain laws in the uk that everyone else does for example they don't have to wear a motorbike helmet and they are allowed to carry a small knife. If you are not Sikh then you would be arrested. This is to do with sexism, if it was a women she wouldn't be allowed such rights. Muslim men are also not required to shave off their beard in France which is 100% a religious requirement, it is seen as their hijab.

I'm sure that there are Muslim women who genuinely want to cover up, who feel that they are making an informed choice. But their whole mindset is influenced by the environment in which they have grown up. Just as our Western cultures influence us so that we ask "Am I too fat/skinny/young/old to wear/shave/like/sing etc?" There was a thread the other day where posters said "Ask your dh to put up a washing line". See? Even MNers are brainwashed by mainstream sexist social attitudes.

But banning covering up won't help. Encouraging covered women to interact with liberal society will help.

Teaching those who support/enforce covering up to accept the values of liberal society will help.

Teaching those who fear or hate Others that xenophobia and racism are unacceptable will help.

I do not believe that France's attitude of banning difference will help with assimilation. It just puts the lid on the melting pot and turns it into a pressure cooker without a safety valve.

mrs its not nearly the same - come on do you really believe that it is? Are you thst blinkard?

Atlas how do you cover up? Do you wear normal clothes or do you wear a burka?

I'm with you Atlas but you won't get much from MN. Nobody wants to hear Muslim women's experiences on here I find. Silenced. And ignored.

I do actually crystal do your wrong there.

atlas I found your last post s bit confusing

So**

I wear abaya and and head scarf it is visible that I am a Muslim.

Hardly no one crystal. I for one am very interested.

I know the thread has moved on, but I would like to clarify one point: French universities do NOT ban students from wearing headscarves. I have been working in French universities for 20 years and there are increasing numbers of female students who wear headscarves, burqas, etc.

There have been suggestions that a ban should be imposed, but they have not been followed through. Individual professors have refused to teach students in headscarves, but they are a tiny minority and their actions have been condemned. French universities are, for all their glaring failings (imposed from above), quite particular in their insistence on freedom, for historical and cultural reasons that are hard to understand from the outside.

See this is the problem you keep moving the goal posts. Social pressure is not the same as coercion. I read a thread a while ago on mumsnet where women were complaining about the social pressure of having to show their legs now that it is summer. The gist of it was that for whatever reason they didn't feel comfortable in most summer clothing that exposed their legs. Why don't you go and campaign for their right not to be pressured to uncover a part of their body they are not comfortable with? We all have social pressures placed on us, you have to have the strength of character you resist.

For those women who do not have the choice to uncover their is very little we can do for them except pressure our own governments to exert more pressure on those nations to change their laws. However at the end of the day nations have sovereignty to make their own laws and it's up to the people in those countries to make changes if they want not us.

As for those who are compelled here I would help them in the same way that we help women who are suffering from domestic violence or who are in abusive relationships. Offer them support to help them gain independence and then support them when they make the decision to leave by providing refuges, provide them with education and training to help them become independent. That's logical. Not saying every Muslim woman has to stop dressing modestly because a few women are forced. I think also within the community leaders who promote sexist rhetoric and misogynistic ideas should be isolated. There is no excuse for promoting inequality but we need to be clear about what we consider inequality to be. That can be dealt with how we deal with sexual discrimination.